Lately I've been playing around with trying different speaker cables given some of what I've had at hands and my own intuitive conclusions. I always knew speaker cables make differences but it's interesting how much different it could make. Speaker cables have been controversial within the diy communities and even with the professional magazines. I remember reading a magazine article and the author went so far to saying that cables probably one single area where it gives the audio industry a bad name due to use of and this is his exact word "snake oil" marketing tactics being used. I once had an argument with a CalTech graduated guy at work who actually is one of the very smart person I know and told me that cables make no difference or at least so small that it makes no difference. Well who's the daddy now.
Anyway, I've been building speakers for about 10 years, and naturally with limited resources I always bought the cheapest cables for speakers for my budgets. I've tried the CAT5 diy and also using foil Goertz inductors wound awhile back and for what they are, they are OK, nothing bad or offensive but I always found they lacked resolution and dynamic but I never really tried to understand critically why although I sort of know why vaguely. A few years later, I then bought a pair of 8in. 10AWG Blue Jeans cables and I noticed an increase in resolution although not drastically but it’s there. My system has a rather warm and somewhat slow bass relatively, and I always thought it had to do with my speakers and the Conrad Johnson Preamp. Even with that, the sound is rather pleasant and nothing is really offensive. I also bought a pair of Blue Jeans 12AWG cables and when I tried it on the same system, to my surprise the sound is quite different. Gone are the slow bass and warmth. The sound now is quite forward with brighter treble. The bass is faster although with less perceived weight. It's like my speakers have had a different voicing altogether. Since they are both Blue Jeans cables, I was very surprised. Although one pair is 10AWG and the other 12AWG, I didn't think it would make that difference.
I then examined the constructions of the cables and they are quite different. The 10AWG is made of a lot of thinly and very fine strand coper fiber whereas the 12AWG pair is made of much thicker stands and there are quite few stands. Based on the dimension alone and everything being equal without knowing the actual quality of the coper, the 10AWG pair will have much lower inductance vs. the 12AWG, but on the flip side, again everything being equal, the 10AWG will have much higher capacitance. With so many strands, the air gaps between those strands will create an dielectric effect hence the increase in capacitance. With some generalization, more inductance will favor higher frequency hence the brighter sound. The 10AWG with higher capacitance will favor low freq. vs. high freq.
I then cut the 8in. 10AWG cable in two halves – now it’s 4in. cable. Now, the sound is still pleasant but gains more speed at the bass, but I think the inherent characteristic is still there that it’s somewhat on the warm side but only with less of it.
I often hear from others that certain cables will be either brighter or warmer. My DIY CAT5 due to its construction will inherently have much more capacitance hence the lack of dynamic. Likewise my Goertz foil inductor DIY cables due to the flat coper will probably have higher cap. than inductance. So I guess the trick for making a neutral cable is having the balance of capacitance and inductance, but what is the balance, what is the appropriate ratio, and to be honest I am not sure. My guess Is it will depend on the amplifier output impedance and the overall impedance of the speakers. It will be tricky, but my guess is there is a range beyond which there will be resonance and ringing. So does that mean that all you need is to have a good balance of inductance and capacitance? As I mentioned in the previous sentence, if both are quite high then there will be ringing and resonance. I’ve read that some cable manufacturers literatures that some try to optimize for lower inductance but if may be done in favor of increase capacitance.
Case in point: I bought a pair of Supra 12AWG cables from Madisound and I do like it. On Madisound Supra website there is a nice article about the R/L/C of the cables which talks about how Supra optimizes the cable construction to favor less inductance, and I do find the bass could be a bit faster.
The other components is the resistance. I think resistance is always bad. It seems the lower is always better. Although if the cable is excessively high inductance and or capacitance, the higher resistance can help damping the resonance, which makes the sound less aggressive at the expense of dynamic. No cables will be perfect. Given each manufacture technique, the coper will have some inherent self inductance and capacitance and resistance. You have to find the right balance. Some coper will need to have finer stand whereas other type of cables can do with thicker stands. Silver are known for having a bright treble. I guess silver although has higher conductance, low resistance, but also higher inductance vs. capacitance. Even if your cables have very low both capacitance and inductance, but if the capacitance is a lot lower than the sound will be on the bright side of neutral. Well at least this is what I think.
The internal cables of my speakers were pretty the cheapest I could find. I always use the one I bought from Frys for a few bucks. My DIY speakers are of three way and I always found the bass was somewhat weak and lagging like there was some type of delay. I always thought that because of my transmission line not tuned correctly or the SEAS 10in. not strong enough. What surprising is there is only a foot of cables from the speakers binding post to the bass Xovers and another foot from the output of the Xover to the 10in. bass driver. How can 2 feet of cable make such difference? I then replace them with the 12AWG Supra I got from Madisound, and the bass is much deeper and much more integrated to the mid and treble. It has transformed the entire sound. Who could have guessed that two feet of cables can make so much difference? Either the Supra has magic or the stuffs I got from Fry’s was the absolute worst. The only thing I wish from the Supra is slighter faster response on the bass.
As long as we are on the same subject, when I shielded my tweeter xover, I found the sound gained more focus. Although I did a few other things, I don’t know how much of it came from the shielding.
Anyway, I thought I would post some of my findings here. My opinions could be wrong. It would be a lot easier if I started with some decent cables, but my budget is limited so I had to prioritize.
Anyway, I've been building speakers for about 10 years, and naturally with limited resources I always bought the cheapest cables for speakers for my budgets. I've tried the CAT5 diy and also using foil Goertz inductors wound awhile back and for what they are, they are OK, nothing bad or offensive but I always found they lacked resolution and dynamic but I never really tried to understand critically why although I sort of know why vaguely. A few years later, I then bought a pair of 8in. 10AWG Blue Jeans cables and I noticed an increase in resolution although not drastically but it’s there. My system has a rather warm and somewhat slow bass relatively, and I always thought it had to do with my speakers and the Conrad Johnson Preamp. Even with that, the sound is rather pleasant and nothing is really offensive. I also bought a pair of Blue Jeans 12AWG cables and when I tried it on the same system, to my surprise the sound is quite different. Gone are the slow bass and warmth. The sound now is quite forward with brighter treble. The bass is faster although with less perceived weight. It's like my speakers have had a different voicing altogether. Since they are both Blue Jeans cables, I was very surprised. Although one pair is 10AWG and the other 12AWG, I didn't think it would make that difference.
I then examined the constructions of the cables and they are quite different. The 10AWG is made of a lot of thinly and very fine strand coper fiber whereas the 12AWG pair is made of much thicker stands and there are quite few stands. Based on the dimension alone and everything being equal without knowing the actual quality of the coper, the 10AWG pair will have much lower inductance vs. the 12AWG, but on the flip side, again everything being equal, the 10AWG will have much higher capacitance. With so many strands, the air gaps between those strands will create an dielectric effect hence the increase in capacitance. With some generalization, more inductance will favor higher frequency hence the brighter sound. The 10AWG with higher capacitance will favor low freq. vs. high freq.
I then cut the 8in. 10AWG cable in two halves – now it’s 4in. cable. Now, the sound is still pleasant but gains more speed at the bass, but I think the inherent characteristic is still there that it’s somewhat on the warm side but only with less of it.
I often hear from others that certain cables will be either brighter or warmer. My DIY CAT5 due to its construction will inherently have much more capacitance hence the lack of dynamic. Likewise my Goertz foil inductor DIY cables due to the flat coper will probably have higher cap. than inductance. So I guess the trick for making a neutral cable is having the balance of capacitance and inductance, but what is the balance, what is the appropriate ratio, and to be honest I am not sure. My guess Is it will depend on the amplifier output impedance and the overall impedance of the speakers. It will be tricky, but my guess is there is a range beyond which there will be resonance and ringing. So does that mean that all you need is to have a good balance of inductance and capacitance? As I mentioned in the previous sentence, if both are quite high then there will be ringing and resonance. I’ve read that some cable manufacturers literatures that some try to optimize for lower inductance but if may be done in favor of increase capacitance.
Case in point: I bought a pair of Supra 12AWG cables from Madisound and I do like it. On Madisound Supra website there is a nice article about the R/L/C of the cables which talks about how Supra optimizes the cable construction to favor less inductance, and I do find the bass could be a bit faster.
The other components is the resistance. I think resistance is always bad. It seems the lower is always better. Although if the cable is excessively high inductance and or capacitance, the higher resistance can help damping the resonance, which makes the sound less aggressive at the expense of dynamic. No cables will be perfect. Given each manufacture technique, the coper will have some inherent self inductance and capacitance and resistance. You have to find the right balance. Some coper will need to have finer stand whereas other type of cables can do with thicker stands. Silver are known for having a bright treble. I guess silver although has higher conductance, low resistance, but also higher inductance vs. capacitance. Even if your cables have very low both capacitance and inductance, but if the capacitance is a lot lower than the sound will be on the bright side of neutral. Well at least this is what I think.
The internal cables of my speakers were pretty the cheapest I could find. I always use the one I bought from Frys for a few bucks. My DIY speakers are of three way and I always found the bass was somewhat weak and lagging like there was some type of delay. I always thought that because of my transmission line not tuned correctly or the SEAS 10in. not strong enough. What surprising is there is only a foot of cables from the speakers binding post to the bass Xovers and another foot from the output of the Xover to the 10in. bass driver. How can 2 feet of cable make such difference? I then replace them with the 12AWG Supra I got from Madisound, and the bass is much deeper and much more integrated to the mid and treble. It has transformed the entire sound. Who could have guessed that two feet of cables can make so much difference? Either the Supra has magic or the stuffs I got from Fry’s was the absolute worst. The only thing I wish from the Supra is slighter faster response on the bass.
As long as we are on the same subject, when I shielded my tweeter xover, I found the sound gained more focus. Although I did a few other things, I don’t know how much of it came from the shielding.
Anyway, I thought I would post some of my findings here. My opinions could be wrong. It would be a lot easier if I started with some decent cables, but my budget is limited so I had to prioritize.
On the same topic, I always found the inexpensive cables from Fry's to have both warm and bright sound at the same time. So how can that be? They either have high capacitance or high inductance so they are either bright or warm but not both.
I think what happens is the cables probably has both high inductance and capacitance. A lot of these inexpensive cables have inherently high resistance and high inductance copper strands. So to make up for that, they bunch a lot of strands together in hoping to reduce resistance which it actually does, but that would increase capacitance as well. So now you have really the worst of both or three worlds. High inductance and high capacitance will cause a lot of ringing. Ringing will create spikes in high frequencies which will have a spiky treble response. The amplitude of the ringing will cause resonance in the bass which will make it boomy and unnaturally warm and slow at the same time. Now add in the low resistance, there is nothing to dampen the resonance. So you have the worst combination.
I think what happens is the cables probably has both high inductance and capacitance. A lot of these inexpensive cables have inherently high resistance and high inductance copper strands. So to make up for that, they bunch a lot of strands together in hoping to reduce resistance which it actually does, but that would increase capacitance as well. So now you have really the worst of both or three worlds. High inductance and high capacitance will cause a lot of ringing. Ringing will create spikes in high frequencies which will have a spiky treble response. The amplitude of the ringing will cause resonance in the bass which will make it boomy and unnaturally warm and slow at the same time. Now add in the low resistance, there is nothing to dampen the resonance. So you have the worst combination.
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Give me your money so I can change the amp. In the meantime, I'll be more happy to spend only a few bucks on my cables.
Did you measure the frequency response at the amp and at the speaker terminals to see if the wire is changing things?
I went to an Audiophile club meeting here in Portland a while back where some guy was putting on a presentation of his $300 - $1k-ish speaker cables, that allegedly had a special alloy metal. I asked him how it could be demonstrated using test equipment that his wire was any better than 16AWG AC line cord bought at any hardware store for 50 cents a foot (?) He said the worlds most sensitive test equipment isn't as sensitive as the human ear, and the wire would have to be maybe 200 feet long before any test equipment would show a difference at audio frequencies... Since I had worked at Tektronix and Dolby Labs, with some of the top Engineers perhaps in the world, both in Engineering and in production areas, and had troubleshot and calibrated 250mHZ Oscilloscopes and many other pieces of high end gear at Tektronix (video demodulators, spectrum analyzers, etc.), I wondered if this guy had any clue what he was talking about. There was no actual comparison demo of the wire, with any other wire...
Having said that, I recently found a situation where the speaker wires did in fact cause substantial distortion... The speaker wires were regular 16AWG AC line cord from a hardware store, multi-stranded copper, but were about 40 years old. The terminations at the vintage McIntosh power amp were screw terminal strips that may not have had a good electrical contact with all the strands. Just by tightening the screws, the distortion which was pretty easy to hear, went away completely.
When I worked at an AV company, I noticed that they would always saturate the ends of multi-strand wires with solder, so all the strands would always have a good electrical connection to each other. I guess over time, the surface of the strands would oxidize/corrode and then not have a good electrical connection to the other strands in the cable. So there is a way speaker cables can introduce distortion. I must say, I was amazed at how much distortion there was from this.
If you do the solder saturation of the ends, and a set screw pinches that in a banana plug (most of them work that way), over time that connection is questionable as well. Dissimilar metals pushed together by a set screw, but the solder is soft so the tightness of the screw gets loose over time. Corrosion sets in, molecular migration happens, the connection becomes non-linear.
But I still maintain that spending hundreds of dollars on speaker cables just shows that the person doesn't have a very good knowledge of what's going on there. Pretty much any wire is fine for audio (putting aside power loss if the cable is long and thin - which is a source of loss, not distortion), but how it's connected at the ends can make a big difference. The head person in our local audiophile group offers speaker cables that cost fourteen thousand dollars for two 20 foot lengths (if I remember correctly). See for yourself at Jenlabs. It's really hard for me to want to be part of that group...
Having said that, I recently found a situation where the speaker wires did in fact cause substantial distortion... The speaker wires were regular 16AWG AC line cord from a hardware store, multi-stranded copper, but were about 40 years old. The terminations at the vintage McIntosh power amp were screw terminal strips that may not have had a good electrical contact with all the strands. Just by tightening the screws, the distortion which was pretty easy to hear, went away completely.
When I worked at an AV company, I noticed that they would always saturate the ends of multi-strand wires with solder, so all the strands would always have a good electrical connection to each other. I guess over time, the surface of the strands would oxidize/corrode and then not have a good electrical connection to the other strands in the cable. So there is a way speaker cables can introduce distortion. I must say, I was amazed at how much distortion there was from this.
If you do the solder saturation of the ends, and a set screw pinches that in a banana plug (most of them work that way), over time that connection is questionable as well. Dissimilar metals pushed together by a set screw, but the solder is soft so the tightness of the screw gets loose over time. Corrosion sets in, molecular migration happens, the connection becomes non-linear.
But I still maintain that spending hundreds of dollars on speaker cables just shows that the person doesn't have a very good knowledge of what's going on there. Pretty much any wire is fine for audio (putting aside power loss if the cable is long and thin - which is a source of loss, not distortion), but how it's connected at the ends can make a big difference. The head person in our local audiophile group offers speaker cables that cost fourteen thousand dollars for two 20 foot lengths (if I remember correctly). See for yourself at Jenlabs. It's really hard for me to want to be part of that group...
I wish I could but I don't have any equipment with me. Those are only my opinions based on my understanding. I am sure there are other factors. I mean how the cables match with the given xovers or the amp output impedance could make a difference. If a higher inductance cables have a better match with the given amp or xover/drivers, then it could be what you want. What I said was a generalization, but I think it makes sense.
Well, I guess I can't disagree with what I hear and I don't want to disagree with your opinions either.
I personally didn't think cables would make much different either but I both didn't have time to tinker with them before and my previous system didn't have the resolution to expose the difference. But I do agree with the connection ends make a difference.
I don't want to generalize all cable manufacturers are "bad", although there are probably some, but I do believe in good cables. And I think one needs to have a good high resolution system to tell the difference.
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I agree, altough i also have some 12AWG pure copper multiwire that costed more than the average speaker. But then we are speaking about 3€/m or so, not several hundreds a meter.
The best speaker cable is no cable.
Keep them as short as possible so the effect of them is minimal.
I have to agree with a sensible length cable the difference between them is minimal.
I have always used 13 amp UK mains cable for my speakers and never had a problem.
So long as the copper isn't lossy they should be ok.
Keep them as short as possible so the effect of them is minimal.
I have to agree with a sensible length cable the difference between them is minimal.
I have always used 13 amp UK mains cable for my speakers and never had a problem.
So long as the copper isn't lossy they should be ok.
Say what you will but I just spent a few hours replacing the little of wire from the tweeter xover output to my tweeter. The cable length is barely longer than a foot. As I said in my post, the old cable is rather of low quality. The new cable is 15AWG Supra from Madisound. My speakers always had this slightly forward upper midrange although nothing offensive, but it's there. The treble tends to get a little bit scratchy but didn't really bother me that much. The voice especially female sometimes gets a little bit unnatural and thinner than I would like. With the new cables although just a little more than a foot longer, fix most of that. Female voice before was a little bit pointy at time but now very sweet sounding. The only thing I wish is the new cables to have a little more treble sparkle, but maybe the speakers itself is like that. Now the treble stays nicely at the back, whereas before it sometimes get in the way of the sound stage making the sound a little more detail than I would like.
If there is one more thing to do is to place the entire tweeter and midrange xovers externally outside. Right now they are right next to each other inside the box and no doubt interfering with each other causing the sound lacking a bit of focus, but hmm... that is a lot of work.
If there is one more thing to do is to place the entire tweeter and midrange xovers externally outside. Right now they are right next to each other inside the box and no doubt interfering with each other causing the sound lacking a bit of focus, but hmm... that is a lot of work.
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If test equipment can't show any difference between those two short tweeter wires, it's been shown that we can convince ourselves that the perceived fancier wire sounds better, even when it doesn't. Or a connector could have been jostled, thereby re-establishing it's marginal connection, which could cause an improvement. Most people don't realize how easily we can trick ourselves into believing something is true, when it's not. An Audiologist (Doctor) once told me that our ears aren't real consistent in how they hear, due to inner ear natural pressure build up, that we don't realize is going on. It varies significantly over time. Sometimes a speaker will sound more warm and lush, and on a different day, or time of day, it may sound a little bit cold and harsh.
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