I heard the $45,000 McIntosh XRT1K

[winslow]

There are equally or more expensive speakers using less money in drive units than MacIntosh is using with those arrays,

 

[astouffer]

Doc Bottlehead was selling kits like that in the 90s.

 

[dynomike]

Not Hivi Drivers

Although I'm not sure, they appear to use 44 of these HiVi 2" drivers.

HiVi B2S 2" Shielded Aluminum Driver

They definitely do not use HiVi drivers - the specs indicate titanium:

ELECTRONIC SPECIFICATIONS
IMPEDANCE NOMINAL
8 Ohms
POWER RATING
1200 Watts
FREQUENCY RESPONSE
16Hz to 45kHz
SOUND PRESSURE LEVEL, 2.8V/1M
88dB
CROSSOVER
250Hz, 2kHz
DRIVER SPECIFICATIONS
NUMBER OF WOOFERS
2
WOOFER SIZE
10"
WOOFER TYPE
Extended Excursion
NUMBER OF MIDRANGES
44
MIDRANGE SIZE
2"
MIDRANGE TYPE
Black Titanium
NUMBER OF TWEETERS
28
TWEETER SIZE
3/4"
TWEETER TYPE
Black Titanium

I find the extremely low efficiency somewhat telling about the crossover design. With that many drivers, the efficiency should be closer to 100dB - but to compensate for a line array's inherent downward treble slope, they need to sop up the majority of the power in the crossover. Line arrays are *not* a good candidate for passive crossovers IMO.

As for the horizontal MTM design, the crossover at 2kHz isn't too high. The center-to-center spacing of the midranges appears to be around 6", so that corresponds to one wavelength at ~2.3kHz. There will be some lobing. Unavoidable with multi-way line arrays and MTM at least has a symmetrical pattern.

Having not heard the speakers, I'm not trying to dispute the OP's experience that they didn't sound good. I just don't think that the issue is cheap HiVi drivers or the horizontal MTM design.

 

[guangui]

The good thing of uber expensive speakers is that when they don't sound good, you can always go home, look at your DIY and feel proud of a job well done. I'm sure most of you can design and build a speaker to kick $45K commercial speakers, and still pocket $20K+ if you were able to sell them to an enthusiast.

 

[GM]

Honestly the imaging and clarity was only a bit better than my xrt18s. The 18s are amazing.

Yeah, it was my fave Mac speaker until the XR290, but big compression horn systems 'rule the roost'.........

GM

 

[eriksquires]

Seriously? $10 drivers in $50k speakers.

Yep, and that is why I'll probably never buy another pair of off the shelf speakers. You should see the crap they are putting into the $15k-ish speakers these days. Ultimately it's the cynical selling to the gullible.

The range of driver cost to final cost is around 5x to 20x. Having said that, I ran across the Lawrence Audio speakers. Towards the low end of that scale, with pretty cabinets. Never heard them in a decently treated room though. If I was going to pay big dollars for a pair of speakers, they are among the few I'd consider as giving me enough value to prevent me from making my own.

Having said that, untreated hotel rooms are the third worst place to listen to a pair of speakers. The first two are a shower and a dealer's showroom. I would have hoped that the tall and wide driver array would have minimized the effects of the room. That's one of the raison de etre's (I'm sure the French are starting a fund to punish me for murdering their language right now) of a line source, or planar source, of which this is a little of both.

Best,


Erik

 

[GM]

Yeah, ~20 yrs ago I auditioned a famous name $80 k speaker system that used inexpensive relabeled European made mid-bass drivers I could buy locally for $9.99/ea., but had to admit that the cabs would cost a small fortune to make and the XOs were 'top drawer', performing quite well for a cone/dome speaker, so knowing what sort of mark-up structure there is in the furniture business regardless of price point, $80 k delivered, set up in home from across the 'pond' didn't seem unreasonable at the time.

Too rich for me, it's more than I've invested over the decades in three single family homes, but if you can afford such prices, then why not? If nothing else it keeps the money in circulation, which is always good for the economy.

GM

 

[eriksquires]

Yeah, ~20 yrs ago I auditioned a famous name $80 k speaker system that used inexpensive relabeled European made mid-bass drivers I could buy locally for $9.99/ea., but had to admit that the cabs would cost a small fortune to make and the XOs were 'top drawer', performing quite well for a cone/dome speaker, so knowing what sort of mark-up structure there is in the furniture business regardless of price point, $80 k delivered, set up in home from across the 'pond' didn't seem unreasonable at the time.

Too rich for me, it's more than I've invested over the decades in three single family homes, but if you can afford such prices, then why not? If nothing else it keeps the money in circulation, which is always good for the economy.

GM

Since it's been 20 years, why not mention the brand? I'd love to know who was selling 80K loudspeakers then!

Actually it doesn't spread the money. It centralizes wealth. If you want to spread the money around it's done in the middle class and middle class purchases.

The middle class stays middle class by spending what they make.

You get poor by spending more than you make.

Wealth is created by making more money than they spend. If I sell $80k speakers I'm not going to turn that around and spend it. I'm going to spend $1k on parts and labor and pocket the rest, otherwise what is the point?

Still, I have to wonder just how many buyers are out there who can put an $80k speaker in their winter cottages. You would think that the number of speaker makers in that range would be small.


Best,


Erik

 

[GM]

I don't know what they preach in economics class, but around here the wealthy provide jobs for the rest of us, some of whom start their own business[es], etc., though admittedly, if our country succeeds in finishing its conversion to socialism it will become pretty much a two class system.

GM

 

[eriksquires]

I don't know what they preach in economics class, but around here the wealthy provide jobs for the rest of us, some of whom start their own business[es], etc., though admittedly, if our country succeeds in finishing its conversion to socialism it will become pretty much a two class system.

GM

This is now officially off topic and I apologize for my part in that. I will just say that there's no easy solution to the problem and that I am not a big believer in binary thought when it comes to political or economic theory. The best solutions are more complicated than can be answered by labels, or at any time during an election year.

Best,


Erik

 

[5th element]

Yep, and that is why I'll probably never buy another pair of off the shelf speakers. You should see the crap they are putting into the $15k-ish speakers these days. Ultimately it's the cynical selling to the gullible.

To be fair that is a massive over generalisation. B&Ws $15k speakers use top quality drive units with a lot of impressive engineering involved. Their cabinets are also excellent. What lets them down is sub par crossover work.

Similarly there are loudspeakers out there that have Scanspeak/SEAS Excel etc quality drivers in that don't cost a fortune. Yes there are some loudspeakers out there that make you scratch your head a little, but not all do.

 

[eriksquires]

You are right, I'm over generalizing, but I can find more than a couple of examples of very high markup speakers. With the state of reviewing being what it is they would seem equivalent to most.

5th, if you've seen Scanspeak's high end drivers in reasonably priced speakers, I'm all "ears." All the one's I've seen had at least a 20x Markup. I'm thinking of Nola and Sony among others. I'm not trying to be contentious. I'd love to know more about high-value speakers you've heard lately.

Best,


Erik

 

[eriksquires]

I'll even submit my own British brand for high value, Monitor Audio. Their silver line, while most suited for rock/pop, is quite fun, and I think under-valued. High quality, if not top-shelf, well executed crossovers in dense cabinets and reasonably good sounding drivers. There's nothing embarrassing when you open them up.

Best,


Erik

 

[guangui]

Monitor Audio Silver is one of my favorites, and my go to when someone wants a recommendation. Is their Platinum worth the price tag?

 

[5th element]

Just pulling a few from stereophiles floorstandarers

You can start with Revel's Performa3 F208. These are a floor standing model with a brace of aluminium cone drivers from SB Acoustics. These use SBs standard series of motors but they typically display scanspeak/SEAS Excel levels of distortion throughout their mid band only losing to the others in the bass and absolute maximum SPL.

These cost $5000 per pair and are very well engineered and with their waveguide loaded tweeter have very nice off axis performance.

Joseph Audio's Perspective cost $12999 and are a 2.5 way using all SEAS Excel drivers.

Aerial Acoustics Model 7T cost $9850 and use customised drivers from scanspeak and SB Acoustics.

Then there are lots of examples in the bookshelf speaker category, heck even some Wilson's that use an 8" Revelator from Scanspeak and either their own custom scanspeak dome tweeter or one of scans own. And if we're talking $15,000 you can get Vivid's entry level stand mounter.

I've ignored speakers such as KEF, Dynaudio, B&W and Focal because they make all of their drivers in house but most of what those companies put out in their premium speakers is solid driver engineering. Then there's also Spendor and ATC that make high quality drivers and mix them with other manufacturers tweeters. A lot of these companies products fall well under $15,000.

Edit - I also forgot to mention Audio Physic owned by DIYaudio's own Joachim Gerhard. He typically uses high quality drivers, both standard and customised, from SEAS in well designed and affordable designs.

 

[ufo2]

what makes you say B&W has "top quality drive units"? because the replacement price is bloated high? drivers are pretty cheap to make for the vast majority of commercial brands.
a few exceptions from china, for instance XTZ have sold cheap floorstanders with real SEAS excel woofers, fountek ribbons etc. i wouldnt be able to beat the retail price if i built them myself, atleast not with that gloss finish. same units can be seen in speakers many multiples above the asking price.
as for b&w 801 etc im pretty sure a $200 range pro woofer could beat the 15"

 

[eriksquires]

I've had a chance to listen to the Performas. I liked them but I found they had an odd exaggerated horn sound. They seemed to find the sound of the sax reeds and really focus on them. Do you think that was a bad demo I got?

OK, Wilson uses Scanspeak and custom Focal tweets, but not among high value speakers.

Thanks for the rest of the list.

Best,

Erik

 

[guangui]

I auditioned the Revel Perf3 M106 over a year ago. I found them excellent sounding and very life like and neutral; they made my Top 5 speakers. The dealer in PR does not have an acoustically treated room, his listening room is about 12 ft X 18 Ft. The M106 were powered by a modified Mark Levinson Amp, which I'm sure made a difference. Having said that, I also auditioned the new underrated Infinity Reference series, which uses the same technology as the Revel Perf3, and they pretty darn close to the Revel for 1/3 of of the price.

 

[eriksquires]

Hi Guangui,

I'm not able to find comparable pictures of the Infinity Reference Series and Perf 3. I haven't heard any of them. Could you post a coupld of links?

I also have not heard the Monitor Platinum series either.

Of the Revel line, I've only heard the floor standing Revel F208's. The upper presence region was exaggerated to my ears, but it may also have been the recordings. I would not be surprised if they were deliberately juiced up. I remember the salesperson saying it was the most natural sounding horns ever, when I was thinking to myself, I've never heard horns sounding like they were being played by a Tupperware container.

The truth is that since discovering XSim, I hardly pay attention to commercial speakers anymore. The F208 and Wilson Sophia were the last two commercial speakers I spent much time listening to. I did go to the California Audio Show in 2015, but the rooms were so poor sounding I hardly made any good impressions.

 

[badman]

I don't know what they preach in economics class, but around here the wealthy provide jobs for the rest of us, some of whom start their own business[es], etc., though admittedly, if our country succeeds in finishing its conversion to socialism it will become pretty much a two class system.

GM

MUST... NOT... BITE.....