Been creeping for a few weeks. The full range concept is intriguing to me. However, I've never heard the one. What would the cheapest and easiest way to hear how they sound prior to investing a lot of money and time into something I may not like?
For what it's worth, I listen to indie folk, hip hop, classic rock, modern alternative, some poppy electronica. My listening area is fairly large. 15 wide by 25 deep with 10 foot ceilings. Listening area is about 10 feet off front wall. Amp would be solid state 50W (diy tube amp is for another discussion). Also I live in Chicago. (In case there's a store or somewhere in the area I could listen. I have a subwoofer I can use to augment. I like detail/clarity and instruments that sound like actual instruments. And when instruments maintain their separation when volume begins to swell.
Thanks. (This wasn't supposed to sound like a dating profile.)
For what it's worth, I listen to indie folk, hip hop, classic rock, modern alternative, some poppy electronica. My listening area is fairly large. 15 wide by 25 deep with 10 foot ceilings. Listening area is about 10 feet off front wall. Amp would be solid state 50W (diy tube amp is for another discussion). Also I live in Chicago. (In case there's a store or somewhere in the area I could listen. I have a subwoofer I can use to augment. I like detail/clarity and instruments that sound like actual instruments. And when instruments maintain their separation when volume begins to swell.
Thanks. (This wasn't supposed to sound like a dating profile.)
One of the the major impediments in any first timer's search is the dearth of representation of single driver/ full-range systems in any local bricks and mortar stores. This leaves it to the chance of finding a local crazy DIY nut bar- oops, aficionado - if you can. I think I can speak for us all in saying that we are eager to indoctrinate - oops- introduce acolytes. If that sounds a bit cultish, you understood perfectly
Simply put, not all FR driver based speaker systems sound the same, and if your first audition isn't a gob-smacking life changer, don't despair- but then again even the "best of class" isn't everyone's cup of tea.
Now is the time for all good DIYers to come to your aid, and proffer their recommendations . Those of us who've built more than a few pairs of speakers may have very strong favourites, and even those will change over time.
Simply put, not all FR driver based speaker systems sound the same, and if your first audition isn't a gob-smacking life changer, don't despair- but then again even the "best of class" isn't everyone's cup of tea.
Now is the time for all good DIYers to come to your aid, and proffer their recommendations . Those of us who've built more than a few pairs of speakers may have very strong favourites, and even those will change over time.
OK, I'll make a suggestion to start - while prices for this category of driver ranges drastically, from clearance specials at under $10 or your local equivalent to "sir, if you have to ask...well, there is a Best Buy on the other side of the mall" - I think you could do far worse than the Alpair10.3.
Any full- range driver I've ever heard benefits substantially not only from just the addition of "sub" woofers, but also from careful matching high-pass filtering . Regardless of the amount of power or type of amp driving them, this will greatly improve their power handling ability, increase dynamic range and reduce distortion
Smithers, unleash the Hounds
Any full- range driver I've ever heard benefits substantially not only from just the addition of "sub" woofers, but also from careful matching high-pass filtering . Regardless of the amount of power or type of amp driving them, this will greatly improve their power handling ability, increase dynamic range and reduce distortion
Smithers, unleash the Hounds
So Chris, these is where we real off our favourites?
(Between Chris & i we are likely into the hundreds of pairs of boxes)
Your room is maybe a 3rd the volume of mine, so anything that works here will likely work in your room. The 50w SS amp (what is it?) likely has a lowish output impedance so that precludes suggesting some drivers that prefer a low output impedance.
Note that most of the drivers Chris & i listen to are at least EnABLed, sometimes more to deal with some driver specific issue, and matched into pairs… thus our favorites might not translate into stock drivers. We try lots of drivers -- still only a fraction of what is available -- rarely mentioning ones that don't make the grade. Since these treated drivers are our products what fllows might read a bit like an advertisement… the underlying stock drivers thou are all worth a look. The kind of boxes they fit in will likely play a big role in your selection.
That caveat stated, my personal favorite is the Mark Audio based Alpair 7.3eN (Chris will mention the rare A7 MOAP, he holds them close to his chest so ihave only auditioned them a little bit). The Alpair 10PeN & 10.3eN trade a bit of DDR/detail, mid & top for more bass capability, and for most are likely a better pick.
The Fostex FF85wKeN is also a favourite, but is bass & loudness limited -- it is only a 3" driver after all. The larger FF105wKeN is almost as good and capable of a bit more bass. The FF165wKeN is also pretty good. All the FFxx5wk drivers have some issues in stock form that we work to ameriolate with special treatment.
The Alpair 6s are neck & neck with the FF85wk with a different set of compromises in each case, probably better in stock form than the Fostex.
We have tried quite a few Tandbands, they either don't cut the mustard, or are good, but expensive for what you get (W8-1772, 1808). Matching on some of the drivers has been not very good.
Visaton B200 has a niche, they really need phase plugs. Fostex FE drivers have a niche as well (but like a high output impedance amp). The limited edition FE103 SOL is a bit different and was a pleasant surprise.
There are more, but those are the hi-lites based on our experience that come to mind 1st and should give you something to start your quest.
dave
(Between Chris & i we are likely into the hundreds of pairs of boxes)
Your room is maybe a 3rd the volume of mine, so anything that works here will likely work in your room. The 50w SS amp (what is it?) likely has a lowish output impedance so that precludes suggesting some drivers that prefer a low output impedance.
Note that most of the drivers Chris & i listen to are at least EnABLed, sometimes more to deal with some driver specific issue, and matched into pairs… thus our favorites might not translate into stock drivers. We try lots of drivers -- still only a fraction of what is available -- rarely mentioning ones that don't make the grade. Since these treated drivers are our products what fllows might read a bit like an advertisement… the underlying stock drivers thou are all worth a look. The kind of boxes they fit in will likely play a big role in your selection.
That caveat stated, my personal favorite is the Mark Audio based Alpair 7.3eN (Chris will mention the rare A7 MOAP, he holds them close to his chest so ihave only auditioned them a little bit). The Alpair 10PeN & 10.3eN trade a bit of DDR/detail, mid & top for more bass capability, and for most are likely a better pick.
The Fostex FF85wKeN is also a favourite, but is bass & loudness limited -- it is only a 3" driver after all. The larger FF105wKeN is almost as good and capable of a bit more bass. The FF165wKeN is also pretty good. All the FFxx5wk drivers have some issues in stock form that we work to ameriolate with special treatment.
The Alpair 6s are neck & neck with the FF85wk with a different set of compromises in each case, probably better in stock form than the Fostex.
We have tried quite a few Tandbands, they either don't cut the mustard, or are good, but expensive for what you get (W8-1772, 1808). Matching on some of the drivers has been not very good.
Visaton B200 has a niche, they really need phase plugs. Fostex FE drivers have a niche as well (but like a high output impedance amp). The limited edition FE103 SOL is a bit different and was a pleasant surprise.
There are more, but those are the hi-lites based on our experience that come to mind 1st and should give you something to start your quest.
dave
The amp is a SimAudio Moon I-1 integrated amplifier. I have a TPA3116 on the way, which is either 50W+50W+100W subwoofer, or 100W+100W. Tiny class D amp. I would look into DIY amps (esp tube preamp) but that is for another forum.
Regarding the woodworking, I don't have a great space or tools. (Live in a Chicago condo downtown) so the flat packs are interesting. My bro in law has tools and a garage, so I would consider building something at his place. I do feel confident in my gluing and I have clamps. I did build an acoustic guitar from a kit. Worked out fairly well. I would hope the speaker experience is easier and more rewarding. (The fretwork and neck angle really troubled me. Also the shellacking didn't turn out looking the way I wanted it to.)
Regarding the woodworking, I don't have a great space or tools. (Live in a Chicago condo downtown) so the flat packs are interesting. My bro in law has tools and a garage, so I would consider building something at his place. I do feel confident in my gluing and I have clamps. I did build an acoustic guitar from a kit. Worked out fairly well. I would hope the speaker experience is easier and more rewarding. (The fretwork and neck angle really troubled me. Also the shellacking didn't turn out looking the way I wanted it to.)
I don't know that i've heard that exact model, but the moon-units i have heard are good. Chris has a chinese TPA3116 amp that is quite good (especially for the price). I have a premium TPA3118 amp that i am building up to use with a small set of Alpair6PeN boxes that i aim to fit into a pelican case for a mobile system.
A proven speaker from a flat-pak or plans certainly should be (i've not built an acoustic guitar soi am guessing).
Ignoring glue time Chris can assemble an FH3 flat-pak in about the same time it takes me to pack one up for shipment.
When we started exploring FRs a decade & a half ago, there were a fraction of the drivers, very few designs, and little reliable information. We have worked to doour part to aid newcomers in getting a good 1st project together -- that often spawns more projects.
dave
Based in my initial research, the Pensil 10.3 is appealing, especially in looks and simplicity of design. I've obviously never heard any of these. Otherwise, flat packs seem appealing. I was tempted to pull the trigger on the fostex BK-12m or possibly the FH3 (which I'm not crazy about the back end). The obvious issue with flat packs is the cost of shipping such large and heavy parts.
I did read about enABL. It does sound a bit like black magic, so I am unlikely to pursue that, especially as a beginner.
I would like to limit initial investment but I do want to get a high quality speaker. Under $500 and ideally much lower if I did the DIY myself.
I did read about enABL. It does sound a bit like black magic, so I am unlikely to pursue that, especially as a beginner.
I would like to limit initial investment but I do want to get a high quality speaker. Under $500 and ideally much lower if I did the DIY myself.
Artists include Bright Eyes, Iron & Wine, RJD2, Beatles, Radiohead, Tallest Man on Earth, Passion Pit, My Morning Jacket, Andrew Bird, Bob Dylan, the Decemberists, Wilco, a Tribe Called Quest, 9th Wonder, Lupe Fiasco, Oddisee, Florence and the Machine, Birdy, Lana del Rey... just to give a sampling. So anywhere from whisper folky to alternative rock, to power pop electronica, to hip hop, to full band Americana.
I listen to what I would consider medium volumes. In between, "can have a conversation while its playing," to "raise your voice slightly above conversational level to be heard." But rarely to the "yell to be heard" level. I have neighbors and eardrums I'd rather not shatter.
Movies are not a consideration whatsoever.
I can highly recommend the 0.53x or 0.4x Karlsonator as a first full range driver speaker. It will amaze you with its bass and big sound and lively dynamics. It's easy to build and is pretty forgiving of driver TS parameters. There are a lot of satisfied builders if you look in the thread.
If I were just getting started, get some inexpensive but good sounding drivers that are well tested. I assure you that the Karsonator will beat any straight tube open face driver MLTL out there in terms of deep big bass and dynamics.
My recommendation is to get either the dual Vifa TC9FD or the Dayton PA130-8 and go for the 0.53x Karlsonator. You will get solid bass and high sensitivity of 91dB. The price is $24 (dual Vifa) or $18 (PA130-8). The build is straightforward and it is a speaker you can listen to for a long time. I have built many speakers and this one still is a favorite. I can come back to it always and enjoy it.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/239338-mini-karlsonator-0-53x-dual-tc9fds.html
And the perfect amp to go with it is the TPA3116.
If I were just getting started, get some inexpensive but good sounding drivers that are well tested. I assure you that the Karsonator will beat any straight tube open face driver MLTL out there in terms of deep big bass and dynamics.
My recommendation is to get either the dual Vifa TC9FD or the Dayton PA130-8 and go for the 0.53x Karlsonator. You will get solid bass and high sensitivity of 91dB. The price is $24 (dual Vifa) or $18 (PA130-8). The build is straightforward and it is a speaker you can listen to for a long time. I have built many speakers and this one still is a favorite. I can come back to it always and enjoy it.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/239338-mini-karlsonator-0-53x-dual-tc9fds.html
And the perfect amp to go with it is the TPA3116.
Many of the music types you listed above will have substantial low bass. Full Range would not be my choice, but there are 3 inch drivers that I've been using (Peerless TG9 and Vifa TC9, now both owned by Tympany, last I heard) that do from 400HZ on up to 15kHZ very well, very flat in a good subenclosure. Put a woofer below that, and a 4th order active crossover at 400HZ, and you would have a pretty nice system (especially if the woofer has active EQ making it acoustically somewhat flat down to 30HZ).
Sure the 3 inchers get a bit beamy at the treble frequencies, but they do it gradually over frequency (as opposed to many multi-way speaker systems), and I' have found that I don't mind that.
Sure the 3 inchers get a bit beamy at the treble frequencies, but they do it gradually over frequency (as opposed to many multi-way speaker systems), and I' have found that I don't mind that.
I've been there.
Sounds like you like it louder and occasionally bassy.
I need my setup to do James Taylor, julie London, Pink floyd, Yin Yang Twins (salt shaker), 80's dance music, Fight Club/Tron/Blade soundtracks, and movies.
I ran 8", cheap and expensive.
Ran 9 x 4", but it rolled at 200hz, excellent otherwise but don't use same dimension sizes in a box.
I'm at a 12" (run wide open) with subwoofer run along side.
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/produ...rch?q=fane+250tc&src=IE-SearchBox&FORM=IE8SRC
I have it higher than my head, off axis with a notch at 2khz, it is fine everywhere.
I wasn't keen on even a 150hz crossover.
It was glaringly obvious when drum runs (low volume) that go deeper and deeper.
Active crossover worked for ultimate volume (if you need it).
Otherwise, yuck.
Oh, and don't be afraid to use a 10 band equalizer.
Norman
Sounds like you like it louder and occasionally bassy.
I need my setup to do James Taylor, julie London, Pink floyd, Yin Yang Twins (salt shaker), 80's dance music, Fight Club/Tron/Blade soundtracks, and movies.
I ran 8", cheap and expensive.
Ran 9 x 4", but it rolled at 200hz, excellent otherwise but don't use same dimension sizes in a box.
I'm at a 12" (run wide open) with subwoofer run along side.
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/produ...rch?q=fane+250tc&src=IE-SearchBox&FORM=IE8SRC
I have it higher than my head, off axis with a notch at 2khz, it is fine everywhere.
I wasn't keen on even a 150hz crossover.
It was glaringly obvious when drum runs (low volume) that go deeper and deeper.
Active crossover worked for ultimate volume (if you need it).
Otherwise, yuck.
Oh, and don't be afraid to use a 10 band equalizer.
Norman
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Putting together a Karlsonator Dual Vifa 0.53x (or Tymphany). Will see how it goes. I do have very high standards, so don't be offended.
Great! Keep us posted - are you making it out of wood or foam core? It is important to line the back chamber surrounding the drivers with either felt or open cell foam to prevent back reflection coloration. Polyfill stuffing in the stub closed end down to just past the drivers is also important. Finally, when using a wooden or other stiffer front Karlson aperture, sometimes a thin layer of felt on the backside of the aperture helps.
No offense taken if you don't like it but I suspect you will as I have not had a single report of someone not liking the sound from these.
Good!
If you want a step up from dollar store foam core, craft stores like Michaels sells Elmer's brand foam core board. They are about 3x denser paper and much more sturdy. They cost about $4 a sheet but 1 or 1.5 sheet is enough for a speaker.
One of the key selling points was "Dollar Store"! There's one a few blocks away, so I got some sheets from them and traced out the plan. The fact that I can do this with a box cutter on my kitchen table was the second selling point. I would like to try a Pensil or Frugel Horn at some point with plywood but that would take more effort and involvement from my brother in law for his truck/tools.
One thing I'm not sold on is the looks of the Karlsonator. Both the foam core board and the front "shroud" are not exactly eye-catchers. Have you had any success dressing these up? I was thinking a grille could mask the front shroud.
One thing I'm not sold on is the looks of the Karlsonator. Both the foam core board and the front "shroud" are not exactly eye-catchers. Have you had any success dressing these up? I was thinking a grille could mask the front shroud.
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