Accidentally I found on the Internet that before vinyl apparition was used the shellac until the '50s on the western countries and until the '70s on the eastern countries.
Which one is better? Which sounds more naturally?
Only the 78 rpm records are made from shellac? All 78 rpm records are made from shellac?
How to clean a shellac record? Is it different?
How can I find out if a disc is made from vinyl or shellac let's say?
A shellac record does use RIAA standard or not?
If playing the shellac record does it suffer a "peeling" by needle which sediments on it?
Which one is better? Which sounds more naturally?
Only the 78 rpm records are made from shellac? All 78 rpm records are made from shellac?
How to clean a shellac record? Is it different?
How can I find out if a disc is made from vinyl or shellac let's say?
A shellac record does use RIAA standard or not?
If playing the shellac record does it suffer a "peeling" by needle which sediments on it?
Shellac records have a rather high noise floor, much higher than vinyl. Most people regard vinyl as by far superior in sound quality; in fact, the only exception I know to this rule is a Dutch DJ who is fond of early 20th century music.
Shellac records are usually 78 rpm records. I think some 78's were made of other materials, but generally they were made of shellac. They have a much wider groove than the more modern 33 1/3 or 45 rpm vinyl microgroove records, and therefore require a much thicker needle.
I don't know if the RIAA standard was ever used for shellac records. Certainly not on the ones from the early 1950's and before, because the standard didn't exist yet. Instead, every record manufacturer had their own equalisation curve.
Shellac records are usually 78 rpm records. I think some 78's were made of other materials, but generally they were made of shellac. They have a much wider groove than the more modern 33 1/3 or 45 rpm vinyl microgroove records, and therefore require a much thicker needle.
I don't know if the RIAA standard was ever used for shellac records. Certainly not on the ones from the early 1950's and before, because the standard didn't exist yet. Instead, every record manufacturer had their own equalisation curve.
So it seems that a shellac record makes something like a hiss, right? So this is the reason that some ceramic cartridges used to have 2 needles: one for 16/33/45 and a special one for 78 rpm? Also nowadays I saw that Audiotechnica and Grado have different needles for 78rpm.
What aboute ebonite?
What aboute ebonite?
Yes.
That's indeed because of the different width of the grooves.
Sounds logical.
I don't know.
OK, this is a subject I know quite a lot about as I do audio restoration. I have been collecting and studying 78s for a long time now.
Shellac itself is not a noisy medium (although it is noisier than vinyl). What makes 78rpm discs noisy is the abrasive particles that were necessarily added to the shellac so that the lead in of the disc could wear down the steel needle used to play them at the time (up to around 1948 or so) into the correct shape. Many pickups tracked well over 100 grams so the hard shellac was necessary.
Shellac is very fragile and has no advantages compared to vinyl for modern usage. A wider stylus is required to play-back recordings made in the 78 era correctly.
Shellac itself is not a noisy medium (although it is noisier than vinyl). What makes 78rpm discs noisy is the abrasive particles that were necessarily added to the shellac so that the lead in of the disc could wear down the steel needle used to play them at the time (up to around 1948 or so) into the correct shape. Many pickups tracked well over 100 grams so the hard shellac was necessary.
Shellac is very fragile and has no advantages compared to vinyl for modern usage. A wider stylus is required to play-back recordings made in the 78 era correctly.
Reading this is very interesting to me as I have about 100 pounds or
40 kilos of 78s. I haven't listened to them in a long time. I would
not describe it as hiss (though it well may be).
I call it rub, because that it what it always sounded like to me.
Funny thing about it I think hiss is what I hear with noisy tube amps
or noisy tubes in amps...followed by amps that you put it on max volume
and you just hear the noise of components.
Somewhere in between them there is the hiss of 33 1/3 vinyl, good vinyl
has very low hiss. I'm sure it is discussed somewhere in my library, if I find
the proper description of it I post some paragraphs for you.
40 kilos of 78s. I haven't listened to them in a long time. I would
not describe it as hiss (though it well may be).
I call it rub, because that it what it always sounded like to me.
Funny thing about it I think hiss is what I hear with noisy tube amps
or noisy tubes in amps...followed by amps that you put it on max volume
and you just hear the noise of components.
Somewhere in between them there is the hiss of 33 1/3 vinyl, good vinyl
has very low hiss. I'm sure it is discussed somewhere in my library, if I find
the proper description of it I post some paragraphs for you.
Post Script to my earlier post.
Don't forget they also had Lacquer discs for home recording and
direct playback.
The term used during that time period was referred to as "scratch"
or surface noise. Most distressing to the ear at 1500 to 15,000 c/s.
I'll see if I can put the scan in here. Hope that helps.
There are three suppressors typically used:
1. Olson
2. Scott Dynamic
3. Price Balanced Clipper
Don't forget they also had Lacquer discs for home recording and
direct playback.
The term used during that time period was referred to as "scratch"
or surface noise. Most distressing to the ear at 1500 to 15,000 c/s.
I'll see if I can put the scan in here. Hope that helps.
There are three suppressors typically used:
1. Olson
2. Scott Dynamic
3. Price Balanced Clipper
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L'art du Son cleaning fluid is OK for 78's and LP's.
Some 78's were pressed on vinyl when the stampers were available. These often used to make LP's and CD transfers. These were still to the old 78 size groove when played. A Shure M44-78 is ideal to transcribe them or the traditional ones ( Expert PU UK Ashtead sell these Shure ). Modern 78's are micro-groove. This gives 7 to 12 minutes cutting time and very high fidelity. Pre 1927 records were cut without electronics. After that electronically, called electrical recordings. There are equalization curves ( tone controls ) that make a very big difference to the sound. Knowing which one to use can be diffiucult. Just having all available is a great help. Like picture focus it becomes obvious when correct very often.
A Lenco 75 is a good machine to play them on. Even the standard arm is OK if bearings are usuable. M44-7 suits very well. More expensive Shure's I don't like as much. The 44-7 needs a good preamp as it have a very high output ( good ). Leak Varislope is one. It has many EQ's. It needs an output buffer to use with modern amps. OPA2604 would suit. Use a very short input cable if so. Output can be as long as you need. I have used 10 metres to a mixing desk when buffered. Without a buffer the Leak will seem to have no treble. Sad as treble is it's strong quality, very open and true to life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WmCKuy9vZE
Some 78's were pressed on vinyl when the stampers were available. These often used to make LP's and CD transfers. These were still to the old 78 size groove when played. A Shure M44-78 is ideal to transcribe them or the traditional ones ( Expert PU UK Ashtead sell these Shure ). Modern 78's are micro-groove. This gives 7 to 12 minutes cutting time and very high fidelity. Pre 1927 records were cut without electronics. After that electronically, called electrical recordings. There are equalization curves ( tone controls ) that make a very big difference to the sound. Knowing which one to use can be diffiucult. Just having all available is a great help. Like picture focus it becomes obvious when correct very often.
A Lenco 75 is a good machine to play them on. Even the standard arm is OK if bearings are usuable. M44-7 suits very well. More expensive Shure's I don't like as much. The 44-7 needs a good preamp as it have a very high output ( good ). Leak Varislope is one. It has many EQ's. It needs an output buffer to use with modern amps. OPA2604 would suit. Use a very short input cable if so. Output can be as long as you need. I have used 10 metres to a mixing desk when buffered. Without a buffer the Leak will seem to have no treble. Sad as treble is it's strong quality, very open and true to life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WmCKuy9vZE
It depends on the equalisation used. For most British pressings a 300Hz bass boost turnover it used. On a flat level it remains constant up to about 3KHz where it increases by about 3dB per octave after that. American pressings were the same up until about 1935 when a 500Hz bass boost was common with 4KHz emphasis.
The crackle is caused by the abrasives mixed into the shellac so it could be played with steel needles. DO NOT USE ANY COATINGS AS THE SHELLAC WILL DISSOLVE!
I find the Stanton 500 to be much better. Especially for warped discs. Although choosing a good stylus from a selection of ones for the transcription is more important.
Shellac surface noise is very different from vinyl noise. Later pressings will not have much abrasive in the mix so will just have the odd click and a very small amount of hiss and crackle.
It is best not to use an impulse filter as they are designed for the occasional click and not the constant volley of crackle that shellac produces. When I reduce this noise I use click reduction which gets rid of the louder pops and crackle reduction which is designed to correct very small short clicks that occur rapidly on earlier wartime and pre-war pressings.
Mmhhh
I passed the whole sunday morning with my father listening to some 78s
The system is composed by: TT - Thorens Td 170 with Ortofon pick up and Om 78 stylus -Cambridge 540P phono pre ( yes, it has a buffer inside ! ) etc etc.
Discs were some italian singer & bands ( like Carosone) or...Dean Martin.
And a great collection of originals from Brasil ...Joao Gilberto
I passed the whole sunday morning with my father listening to some 78s
The system is composed by: TT - Thorens Td 170 with Ortofon pick up and Om 78 stylus -Cambridge 540P phono pre ( yes, it has a buffer inside ! ) etc etc.
Discs were some italian singer & bands ( like Carosone) or...Dean Martin.
And a great collection of originals from Brasil ...Joao Gilberto
I like italian artists (much more because I learned italiano).
Off-topic: what songs? Tu vuo fa l'americano?
I would like to buy some discs of 78rpm but at the moment I have only two decks each of them having only 33 e 45rpm. So I should buy another phono with 78rpm and a special cartridge + stylus. Also I should think very good what artists/songs I would like to listen to 78rpm.
I also prefer 45rpm singles. They have greater quality sometimes than 33rpm because of the speed.
Off-topic: what songs? Tu vuo fa l'americano?
I would like to buy some discs of 78rpm but at the moment I have only two decks each of them having only 33 e 45rpm. So I should buy another phono with 78rpm and a special cartridge + stylus. Also I should think very good what artists/songs I would like to listen to 78rpm. I also prefer 45rpm singles. They have greater quality sometimes than 33rpm because of the speed.
Here is a discussion about noise reduction:
Here is the link, this is the edition you want, not the earlier edition.
There is a reprint but that is on almost clear rice paper.
Smith, L. (1950s) Radiotron Designers Handbook, 4th edition.
Now I'm wanting to listen to some of the 78s boxed up,
Les Paul, Billy Holiday, Count Basie, Bix Biderbeck(sp)
others.
Thanks Monty78pig that is what I was alluding to.
Good information.
Cheers
Here is the link, this is the edition you want, not the earlier edition.
There is a reprint but that is on almost clear rice paper.
Smith, L. (1950s) Radiotron Designers Handbook, 4th edition.
Now I'm wanting to listen to some of the 78s boxed up,
Les Paul, Billy Holiday, Count Basie, Bix Biderbeck(sp)
others.
Thanks Monty78pig that is what I was alluding to.
Good information.
Cheers
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A friend called me recently about 78's. He uses a 78 Denon MC. My advice was to use a microphone preamp of which he has many and do the EQ in the digital domain. He is very happy with the results. As he wants digital copies he is happy to take a less than purists solution. 600 R loading is fine for a Denon 103.
Often the part of the groove available is damaged. This will remove 80% of how the 78 sounded when new. People who transcribe use a variety of stylii to try to find unplayed groove.
We used Garrard 401/501 SME 5 and M44-78. The Shure has a very high output. Sometimes ( often ) it will overload a preamp. If so sound quality will suffer. If it can be matched it is rather like the Decca London without the Decca problems. Even the 44-7 sounds OK . The Shure likes a load > 100 K . If not it sounds squashed when typical 47 K used, one guy uses 1M. This will slightly change it's EQ. This can be restored. I suspect if one learns general EQ's one can correct any loading compromise by ear. One way is to use a few CD's. As much as I am not a CD fan they do at least give a balance.
If you build a preamp with variable gain that is a good thng. I tend to make the first stage do most of the gain if MC. This will be a gain plus buffer and passive EQ of 75 uS when modern LP. If this is 7K5 and 10 nF polystyrene that will work very well. The gain might be from 100 down to near unity. I find the middle gains sound less good if using an op omp. My understanding is the unity gain stability sets the sound. Some chips are not unity gain stable. The need additional compenstion. These might be better choices. The dreaded NE5534 comes to mind. If understood it is not a bad device. One can even add a low noise input stage via the NE5534 comp pins and switch off the internal ones . The SE class A trick can be used as this is low level ( 10 K from out to -ve rail ). Ideally a GBWP of > 10 MHz , MC33078 gives 16 MHz. The next stage active giving 3180/318 uS at a gain of about 17 1kHz. The peramp can be arranged to offer other than 75 uS. Whilst this is not perfect it should be a lot better than none. The thing to know is EQ is not just sound. It is also phase. When correct it has a magic about it.
Often the part of the groove available is damaged. This will remove 80% of how the 78 sounded when new. People who transcribe use a variety of stylii to try to find unplayed groove.
We used Garrard 401/501 SME 5 and M44-78. The Shure has a very high output. Sometimes ( often ) it will overload a preamp. If so sound quality will suffer. If it can be matched it is rather like the Decca London without the Decca problems. Even the 44-7 sounds OK . The Shure likes a load > 100 K . If not it sounds squashed when typical 47 K used, one guy uses 1M. This will slightly change it's EQ. This can be restored. I suspect if one learns general EQ's one can correct any loading compromise by ear. One way is to use a few CD's. As much as I am not a CD fan they do at least give a balance.
If you build a preamp with variable gain that is a good thng. I tend to make the first stage do most of the gain if MC. This will be a gain plus buffer and passive EQ of 75 uS when modern LP. If this is 7K5 and 10 nF polystyrene that will work very well. The gain might be from 100 down to near unity. I find the middle gains sound less good if using an op omp. My understanding is the unity gain stability sets the sound. Some chips are not unity gain stable. The need additional compenstion. These might be better choices. The dreaded NE5534 comes to mind. If understood it is not a bad device. One can even add a low noise input stage via the NE5534 comp pins and switch off the internal ones . The SE class A trick can be used as this is low level ( 10 K from out to -ve rail ). Ideally a GBWP of > 10 MHz , MC33078 gives 16 MHz. The next stage active giving 3180/318 uS at a gain of about 17 1kHz. The peramp can be arranged to offer other than 75 uS. Whilst this is not perfect it should be a lot better than none. The thing to know is EQ is not just sound. It is also phase. When correct it has a magic about it.
I regularly play 78rpm shellac records. Long ago, I used a Shure cartridge from the M75 series for which I bought a green grip fitted with a 78 stylus.
Some years later, I bought two Shure SC35C cartridges and modified one of the cantilevers with a diamond stylus and harder suspension.
The turntable of choice was one of my Garrard 301's fitted with two arms and amplification was either my Leak Stereo 20 and a Varislope 11 pre-amp which several equalisation settings. For having correctly equalised sound through two speakers, one of diyaudio's longstanding members from my country (Johan) came to the rescue. He suggested I make up a short bridging lead with an rca plug at each end and to plug that into the two rca jacks at top rear of my Leak amplifier. Very satisfactory playback resulted from this arrangement.
I also use another setup for 78rpm playback - my trusty, recently refurbished SCA35 Dynaco valve integrated amplifier set to mono and with its useful filter switched on.
During all the years of playing 78's, I have always thought about making an mc cartridge specifically just for this purpose and quite recently, finally made myself such a cartridge.
It has an african blackwood 'spine', using two longitudinally arranged coils beween two pure nickel pole pieces, a powerful 8.5x8.5x3.0mm neodymium magnet, a low compliance suspension capable of tracking at between 4.5 and 5.5g downforce and all materials used have been carefully chosen to minimise surface noise.
The cartridge weighs 10g and I'm estimating its output to be around 0.05mV which is perfect for the little Lentek active step-up used.
This cartridge is a considerable improvement on the Shure SC35C previously used.
bulgin
Some years later, I bought two Shure SC35C cartridges and modified one of the cantilevers with a diamond stylus and harder suspension.
The turntable of choice was one of my Garrard 301's fitted with two arms and amplification was either my Leak Stereo 20 and a Varislope 11 pre-amp which several equalisation settings. For having correctly equalised sound through two speakers, one of diyaudio's longstanding members from my country (Johan) came to the rescue. He suggested I make up a short bridging lead with an rca plug at each end and to plug that into the two rca jacks at top rear of my Leak amplifier. Very satisfactory playback resulted from this arrangement.
I also use another setup for 78rpm playback - my trusty, recently refurbished SCA35 Dynaco valve integrated amplifier set to mono and with its useful filter switched on.
During all the years of playing 78's, I have always thought about making an mc cartridge specifically just for this purpose and quite recently, finally made myself such a cartridge.
It has an african blackwood 'spine', using two longitudinally arranged coils beween two pure nickel pole pieces, a powerful 8.5x8.5x3.0mm neodymium magnet, a low compliance suspension capable of tracking at between 4.5 and 5.5g downforce and all materials used have been carefully chosen to minimise surface noise.
The cartridge weighs 10g and I'm estimating its output to be around 0.05mV which is perfect for the little Lentek active step-up used.
This cartridge is a considerable improvement on the Shure SC35C previously used.
bulgin
I just got a new record player to replace my other micromatic player that had a bad cartridge (Couldnt find the right one to replace it with)MarcelvdG said:
This new micromatic player I have has a short needle... 1 side says MG and the other 78 ... I havent ever had one of these before... Playing my records on my MG needle most of them have heavy bass,is this the way MG needles sound?????
The needle barely works,I do not think its the right one for this cartridge! (The 78 tip doesnt work @ all even on 78s (Its not long enough) it makes all kinds of wierd sounds like its hitting the cartridge......
Its white and on most needles 78 is on the left. On this one 78 is on the RIGHT and MG is on the left.........
Its a standard magnavox cartridge so I might just replace it with a proper 33/78 needle.... BUT THIS ONE SOUNDS QUITE GOOD ON 78s!!!! (The MG side) On most 33s the sound is HEAVY (More bass than should be I think I dunno since I havent ever had an MG needle!! (All needles I have ever had say LP .. 78 (Or LP/S .. 78)))
I wouldn't use a magnavox cartridge on 33 or 45 rpm records. Quite likely it is ceramic technology and may be ripping the highs off the LP's and 45's in a couple of plays. My Mother's RCA stereo certainly damaged my beautiful London FFRR & Mercury Living Presence LP's before I replaced it in 1970 with an AR turntable.
The 5 g or so a Magnavox is tracking at is probably quite light for 78 RPM records. I don't know of any way to make 78's last forever, anyway. Shellac was fragile, the steel needles wore out in a few passes, and then there were cactus needles (seriously). Also, all my parents' best 78's (Miller, Goodman, Dorsey) were broken up in the move in 1956.
Some artists weren't recorded in anything else. Personally I collect those LP rerecordings of the old favorites, which can be quite pleasant. Usually under $1 at Goodwill or Salvation Army resale, those artists are forgotten by the rock & roll generation mostly. I like the greatest hits of the last 400 years personally. Some days are big band days, some days have great pop vocalists of the AM radio era.
Have fun with this.
The 5 g or so a Magnavox is tracking at is probably quite light for 78 RPM records. I don't know of any way to make 78's last forever, anyway. Shellac was fragile, the steel needles wore out in a few passes, and then there were cactus needles (seriously). Also, all my parents' best 78's (Miller, Goodman, Dorsey) were broken up in the move in 1956.
Some artists weren't recorded in anything else. Personally I collect those LP rerecordings of the old favorites, which can be quite pleasant. Usually under $1 at Goodwill or Salvation Army resale, those artists are forgotten by the rock & roll generation mostly. I like the greatest hits of the last 400 years personally. Some days are big band days, some days have great pop vocalists of the AM radio era.
Have fun with this.
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