T. Danely,
Thanks for that on power compression. As I was thinking in normal home use with modern voicecoils and reasonable spl levels in a HOME you aren't going to notice power compression. Now in a PA application where every device could be pushed to very high output things are very different. I would just forget about that phenomena unless of course we are trying to get a +110db out of a Bose 4" speaker with a high powered amp!
On this never ending concept that we need higher bit rates and clock speeds to get the dynamic range that seems to be a red herring. I don't think from everything I have learned here and other places it is really an equipment problem. It goes back to the source material, the compression is happening in the studio for 99% of the music right at the mix console. The stupidity of the loudness wars has made this so for commercial broadcast whether that is for over the air radio or streaming audio. Unless you are making your own recordings or are listening to some very few classical or chamber music production there just doesn't seem to be anybody who is going to record a high dynamic range recording. I would like to hear from any recording engineer on this forum who says they are using no compression or low compression in the studio doing current work. Perhaps someone needs to work on a great expander instead of worrying about bits and bytes. Take the limited dynamic range and pull a wider dynamic range from the available information. That would be to me similar to doing deconvolution to correct a speaker system, put the dynamic range back after the compression if the information is buried in the digital information to be retrieved.
Thanks for that on power compression. As I was thinking in normal home use with modern voicecoils and reasonable spl levels in a HOME you aren't going to notice power compression. Now in a PA application where every device could be pushed to very high output things are very different. I would just forget about that phenomena unless of course we are trying to get a +110db out of a Bose 4" speaker with a high powered amp!
On this never ending concept that we need higher bit rates and clock speeds to get the dynamic range that seems to be a red herring. I don't think from everything I have learned here and other places it is really an equipment problem. It goes back to the source material, the compression is happening in the studio for 99% of the music right at the mix console. The stupidity of the loudness wars has made this so for commercial broadcast whether that is for over the air radio or streaming audio. Unless you are making your own recordings or are listening to some very few classical or chamber music production there just doesn't seem to be anybody who is going to record a high dynamic range recording. I would like to hear from any recording engineer on this forum who says they are using no compression or low compression in the studio doing current work. Perhaps someone needs to work on a great expander instead of worrying about bits and bytes. Take the limited dynamic range and pull a wider dynamic range from the available information. That would be to me similar to doing deconvolution to correct a speaker system, put the dynamic range back after the compression if the information is buried in the digital information to be retrieved.
You want a frequency centered on an FFT bin in general. It's actually an ancient choice in the original RED BOOK CD standards by CBS there's a whole table going through the spectrum.
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I cant get this site to work here but it has all ref to Standards - might have to go out of DIYAudio and type it in.....
www.digitizationguidelines.gov/audio-visual/documents/ADC_performGuide_20120619.pdf
Good source for your test & measurement Standards. Probably for the reason Scott gives for the required test methods.
THx-RNMarsh
www.digitizationguidelines.gov/audio-visual/documents/ADC_performGuide_20120619.pdf
Good source for your test & measurement Standards. Probably for the reason Scott gives for the required test methods.
THx-RNMarsh
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yes. it is selective to the point of consumer playback gear. And, downloading files of 32 bits. Quit specific.
-RNM
yes. it is selective to the point of consumer playback gear. And, downloading recorded master files of 32 bits. Quit specific.
-RNM
I took a picture for you last night.... but when i tried to upload it, the small file size limit was exceeded. Maybe I'll take another picture in low res mode just for you.
I doubt you would know about it because thy were not sold in A-V stores but in furniture stores..... because that is what they were. Didnt come with electronics... spkr were optional.
Or I could attach it to your email address. THx-RNMarsh
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And here (see attachment) you will say that it is ugly but it could be worse!
Upper trace, same apparatus, same cal file, 12 Feb 2015 18:48 same room, with very low outside noise (it was snowing, no car traffic outside) but an air-conditioning unit was in operation on another neighbouring space, 6m away from the mic.
That must be the theoretically achievable.
From the few times I have casually monitored the min and max SPL while listening to music, I don’t think that the dynamic range was more than 60-70dB.
You have intrigued my curiosity for doing a more cautious observation on what is the average dynamic range in my living room with the music I listen to (classical and opera, the later only when I am alone at home
George
yes that would be your listening envirnment's dynamic range. Your source material is another matter... LP or CD or MP3 or FM? You already exceed the dynamic range of LP. A lot of 'live' classical and jazz music has very high dynamic range and recorded without compression.
If that master files were 32 bits, you will not only get a range that you could hear all of In Your Home but the mid and lower levels would be higher resolution and that is the key to the better sound. the mid level resolution.... will have more bits and lower distortion right there where we listen. With a 32 bit system at home, HiRes downloads from the Matser file will do us a big favor. Fortunately, things seem to going in that direction.
But even right now -- a hiRes download of uncompressed music at 24 bit is a big improvement over any kind of disk record/playing. The accumulated distortion of the sytsem drops to levels unheard of any other way. better than analog? No. But with 32 bit, it may just come so close it wont matter any more. We shall see.
THx-RNMarsh
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Richard,
It is just to bad that you don't have a method to chose the dynamic range you need for the situation. It would be one thing to listen to a recording with a very wide dynamic range from very quite to very loud sounds in a dedicated listening room or quite house and another to listen to that same music in your car where the background noise is so much higher in level. If the device adjusted the dynamic range depending on background noise level that would be great but I think I am just dreaming there.
It is just to bad that you don't have a method to chose the dynamic range you need for the situation. It would be one thing to listen to a recording with a very wide dynamic range from very quite to very loud sounds in a dedicated listening room or quite house and another to listen to that same music in your car where the background noise is so much higher in level. If the device adjusted the dynamic range depending on background noise level that would be great but I think I am just dreaming there.
No electronics and speakers were optional? Ok, then all it was was a glorified equipment rack.
That's not at all what I'm wanting to do so I don't see how you could have said that what I want to do has already come and gone in the form of Monster's equipment rack.
Zu Audio is doing basically the same thing as Monster except the speakers aren't optional. And it's pretty damn ugly in my opinion.
Sure. I'd like to see at least what it looked like.
You can send it to me at theaudioguild@gmail.com
Thanks!
Well, that is because Monster Intended to sell it bare or with equipment installed... all Monster, of course. And, you could buy the Monster amps etc seperate as well.
The furniture stores liked the idea. And, it was presented to Best Buy and Circuit City and Magnolia et al at CES, first. But then the bankers and wall street crashed the system and everyone in it. And, we never got it going for very long ..... 2 years. You should try it but it takes a LOT of cash to do it..... its heavy and shipping alone can kill you. prices then and whats affordable now, doesnt make it work. Maybe someday in the far future when the world is in better shape.
But a totally integrated approach would have better potential for maxing out the performance/cost of a total system. Just as is done in car audio... the room,amps and speakers are a single package optimizd for the cost/peformance with dsp/ eq and all done for you. Also doing that is the video home system (TV)... integrating audio/speakers, video, computer, Internet into one box. Closet thing to that in audio is the New Reciever.... the HiRez storage and playback box with built-in converters and power amp. Throw in a pair of speakers to the package and you have done it all as a single turn-key purchased system.... without the furniture part.
THx-RNMarsh
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What would be really cool, IMO, is an algor that allowed best rez to be used only in the mid to lower levels and less rez at the highest and lowest levels. Optimized for lowest distortion for the mid levels. [cant be done with the way things are structured now]. But 24 bits at all levels would also be very cool. A lot of level shifting and processing needed.
Just an idea.
THx-RNMarsh
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I'm afraid Richard is on a road to nowhere with his "thing" about 32 bits - a complete waste of everything, bandwidth, storage space, etc, etc. The subjective dynamic range is a function of overall system competence - and, yes, a high percentage of supposedly high performance setups lack this, quite badly. What they fail to project is intensity - live music always has this in spades, the sound just completely fills the auditory universe at that moment, dominates it; this is a key feature of "convincing" sound, that it just takes over your listening space, and other, non-related sounds fade into the background, are irrelevant.
All in One -
One model looked like this.... door colors were a selection. Different sizes.
To be later optioned out with Monster amps, powerfilters, 2-3-way speakers, etc. But never got that far. But, we did good with selling individual pieces. Couldnt sell them at that time with everything included.... way too expensive... not enough market. So we went to the Pick-n-Choose retail model.
BTW -- I added the curved front doors to the design to disperse any sound reflections coming back at the listener.
THx-RNMarsh
One model looked like this.... door colors were a selection. Different sizes.
To be later optioned out with Monster amps, powerfilters, 2-3-way speakers, etc. But never got that far. But, we did good with selling individual pieces. Couldnt sell them at that time with everything included.... way too expensive... not enough market. So we went to the Pick-n-Choose retail model.
BTW -- I added the curved front doors to the design to disperse any sound reflections coming back at the listener.
THx-RNMarsh
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Compressed recordings can be "fixed", I've done this manually as an experiment and it was very successful. Sophisticated software processing would be able to do the job, and down the track I'm certain that there will be a significant sub-industry sorting out all the "dud" recordings made over the last couple of decades.
As an example of getting big dynamic range on recent CD, the soundtrack of Moulin Rouge would be good to go - huge dynamic contrasts, if the volume were set by a softer passage, then almost continuous clipping would kick in on the crescendos ...
IYO. IMO, and I think it will sound better for the reasons given and the published lit on the subject agrees. There is no doubt 32 bit will be better for consumers esp as a streaming or download direct from an uncompresed Master file. Because the low to mid levels will have lower distortion. The distortion today at low to mid levels are audibly high.
Meanwhile, loose the CD and LP and go direct HD/HRes downloads for lower over-all system distortion.
THx-RNMarsh
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