The Epos self supported metal grill is good on diffraction but gives a slight +1dB gain plateu starting around 12k. I have actually measured it on a M15.2.
If you remove it you will distinctly hear a lessening of excess 'lit soundstage'. Also the dome mesh protector peaks a little. Its removable.
Lightly woven nylon pop shield type cloth you will not hear its effect if you strech it well in front of your application.
Since metal is additive and cloth is subtractive, in your case better use metal grill then, and use a 0.47R resistor in +HF in. Or even use metal perforated which lifts HF and cover it with 1dB absorptive cloth and you are even. Plus good looks.
If you remove it you will distinctly hear a lessening of excess 'lit soundstage'. Also the dome mesh protector peaks a little. Its removable.
Lightly woven nylon pop shield type cloth you will not hear its effect if you strech it well in front of your application.
Since metal is additive and cloth is subtractive, in your case better use metal grill then, and use a 0.47R resistor in +HF in. Or even use metal perforated which lifts HF and cover it with 1dB absorptive cloth and you are even. Plus good looks.
I believe that what can and cannot be heard depends on the individual case.
Many years ago I owned a pair of speakers (Goodmans Planax III - strange planar things!) which had badges about 1cm square made of nothing more than thick foil attached to the grilles. I was astonished at the audible difference when I removed the badges - this was no subtle effect, and I'd have found it hard to believe if I hadn't heard it myself.
Many years ago I owned a pair of speakers (Goodmans Planax III - strange planar things!) which had badges about 1cm square made of nothing more than thick foil attached to the grilles. I was astonished at the audible difference when I removed the badges - this was no subtle effect, and I'd have found it hard to believe if I hadn't heard it myself.
Paradise_Ice said:
Well IMO, here, at least, is some truth. It all depends. If you're talking strickly about the textile portion of a grille and not the frame, material and weave can make a significant difference. I deal a lot with classic New England speakers clothed with linen grille cloths. Recently, I studied and tested two currently available linen samples with the same thread count and found that % open area of the fabric is critical to optimizing the transmission of sound thru it. Linen is the fabric of choice for AR, Advent, KLH and others. However, if your not dealing with these classic brands I suggest an open weave polyester fabric. Synthetic fabrics are smooth and that's an added bonus vs fuzzy natural thread based fabrics. Here is a link to a well known supplier of synthetic fabrics:
http://www.acoustimac.com/index.php...n=com_virtuemart&Itemid=21&vmcchk=1&Itemid=21
For those interested in the results of my tests on linen, PM me and I'll email you a 3 pg pdf document which was a bit large for upload here. Be sure to include your direct email address. I don't think the PM system here allows attachments.
Ty_Bower said:So, where do Vandersteens fit into all this? I've picked up a used set which need new grill cloths. Should I just leave them off and forget about it? There is no "grill" at all - just the cloth itself.
You don't want to screw up the great sound of these fine speakers. So, I suggest you fabricate a custom fitted 'sock' made from a brown or black polyester fabric available from a number of speaker suppliers on the www. I believe when new, those had a sock as well. Order some fabric and get a bunch of velcro strips from the local craft store and cover those naked babies! Unless, of course, nude is your preference for listening and there isn't a WAF to concern yourself with.
Paradise_Ice said:
This is obviously the problem. You just can't trust these people who work for big successful speaker and hi-fi companies. They're all born liars. I don't know why you bother to give them the time of day. Tell them to stuff their advice. What do they know anyway?
w
If you see them again, tell them a guy I know says he wouldn't give their equipment houseroom. And he should know.
I pull out "the safety" frames from my speakers.
Because they choke a HF band .
I think that a fly stopped at tweeter area may affect the sound.
We should ask "what is the physic and purpose of safety clothes"
I think:
1.Safety from dust or touching the diaphragms of the speakers"
2. Art (look of the loudspeaker/design)
Have somebody ask yourself: what is better filing when you sleep with
, To use protection or not?
If we exclude the safety reasons.
Because they choke a HF band .
I think that a fly stopped at tweeter area may affect the sound.
We should ask "what is the physic and purpose of safety clothes"
I think:
1.Safety from dust or touching the diaphragms of the speakers"
2. Art (look of the loudspeaker/design)
Have somebody ask yourself: what is better filing when you sleep with
, To use protection or not?If we exclude the safety reasons.
sdclc126 said:
In my experience this kind od stuff is some of the worst possible for grills.
Without going to exotica, lycra double knit is amounst some of the most transparent cloth you can get -- the biggest prob lem thou (as mentioned more than once) is the grill/support frame.
Linn has a clever method, where the baffle has an inset on the sides/edges of the cabinet and a piece of double-knit with elastic on the edges drops into this recess -- no grill frame at all, It does require designing the baffle so that the movement of the driver does not impinge on the cloth.
dave
Attachments
Spendor had a clever trick with the grill on the BC1 It was a flat THIN plywood with a vertical cutout for the drive units, the remainder of the surface covered in foam, then the grill cloth stretched over the foam and stapled on the back side. This reduced the "baffle edge effect" by attenuating the high frequencies travelling along the baffle through the foam. Many felt the speaker sounded better with the grill on rather than off. The vynair cloth they used in those days had been tested by the BBC and found to be acoustically transparent. Acoustically it made the speaker seem "thinner" than the actual baffle width, something felt at that time to improve dispersion and stereo image. It's possible that how you deal with the reflection or dispersion due to baffle edges is more important than the cloth used. The LS3/5a had felt around the tweeter for much the same reason.
Once again in over my head, but...
Let's look at the statement -
"The speaker cloth or grills have no affect on sound quality at all"
First, define 'sound quality'? Is it, the speakers sound bad with the cloth on and good with it off? Is that our measure of quality?
So, if the speakers sound good with the grill cloth on, can we then say, the cloth doesn't effect the sound quality?
In a sense, we have a qualified statement. The person isn't saying there is no effect, he is merely saying the grill cloth doesn't make the speaker sound bad.
On the subject of grill cloth, I've found what I think would make excellent grill cloth. It is a visually and presumably acoustically transparent cloth available in most fabric stores. It is a very open weave 'wedding veil' material that is available in an assortment of colors. Plus, it has a very slight one-way stretch to it, so it should stretch and fit over grills easily. This stuff is so visually transparent the you would be able to see your speaker clearly through it.
Also, where the thread crossover each other, the threads are locked or fused, so the threads won't 'sing' against each other.
But, we now come to the one thing that probably makes the biggest difference in the sound quality, it is not the grill, but the grill frame.
People go to such great lengths to sound the edges of their cabinets, the cover the speaker with cloth on a square grill frame.
I've wondered if it would work better if grill frames were made in something of the shape of a triangle. With the wide face of the triangle against the speaker, and the cloth stretch over the sloping side with a soft rounded peak. (does that make sense?)
Would we get diffraction waves as the sound crossed over the soft rounded flare of the grill frame?
Or would a very shallow half-round grill frame work better?
Don't know, but it seemed better than a square frame.
Back to grill cloth in general, have you ever seen or felt grill cloth on our speakers move. If not, then it must be very acoustically transparent. If you have seen or felt it move, then you must be using a very dense cloth.
Sorry, just a bit of rambling.
Steve/bluewizard
Let's look at the statement -
"The speaker cloth or grills have no affect on sound quality at all"
First, define 'sound quality'? Is it, the speakers sound bad with the cloth on and good with it off? Is that our measure of quality?
So, if the speakers sound good with the grill cloth on, can we then say, the cloth doesn't effect the sound quality?
In a sense, we have a qualified statement. The person isn't saying there is no effect, he is merely saying the grill cloth doesn't make the speaker sound bad.
On the subject of grill cloth, I've found what I think would make excellent grill cloth. It is a visually and presumably acoustically transparent cloth available in most fabric stores. It is a very open weave 'wedding veil' material that is available in an assortment of colors. Plus, it has a very slight one-way stretch to it, so it should stretch and fit over grills easily. This stuff is so visually transparent the you would be able to see your speaker clearly through it.
Also, where the thread crossover each other, the threads are locked or fused, so the threads won't 'sing' against each other.
But, we now come to the one thing that probably makes the biggest difference in the sound quality, it is not the grill, but the grill frame.
People go to such great lengths to sound the edges of their cabinets, the cover the speaker with cloth on a square grill frame.
I've wondered if it would work better if grill frames were made in something of the shape of a triangle. With the wide face of the triangle against the speaker, and the cloth stretch over the sloping side with a soft rounded peak. (does that make sense?)
Would we get diffraction waves as the sound crossed over the soft rounded flare of the grill frame?
Or would a very shallow half-round grill frame work better?
Don't know, but it seemed better than a square frame.
Back to grill cloth in general, have you ever seen or felt grill cloth on our speakers move. If not, then it must be very acoustically transparent. If you have seen or felt it move, then you must be using a very dense cloth.
Sorry, just a bit of rambling.
Steve/bluewizard
Fly mesh screens on windows around here are secured with a plastic tube pressed into a groove. Often the tube is ridged for better grip.
the groove is slightly wider at the bottom than at the top. The tension of the cloth pulls the tube into the narrow section, thus clamping the cloth.
It is assembled with a small wheel on a handle, the act of pressing the tube in tensions the cloth.
I suggest rounding the corners of the cabinet with a generous radius, 20mm or more.
cut such a groove with a router up the sides of the cabinet and across the top and bottom just after the radius finishes.
Stretch the chosen cloth over the front slightly looser than what you want, it can be temporarily secured with threads around the back of the cabinet.
Press your tube in with the wheel, trim excess cloth off with a scalpel cutting against the back edge of the groove.
Start and finish the tube on the bottom of the cabinet, also plunge in here with the router bit to cut the groove. The keystone shape of the groove is vital. Find plastic tube of a diameter to suit the router bits available. Tube with very little linear stretch is best.
the groove is slightly wider at the bottom than at the top. The tension of the cloth pulls the tube into the narrow section, thus clamping the cloth.
It is assembled with a small wheel on a handle, the act of pressing the tube in tensions the cloth.
I suggest rounding the corners of the cabinet with a generous radius, 20mm or more.
cut such a groove with a router up the sides of the cabinet and across the top and bottom just after the radius finishes.
Stretch the chosen cloth over the front slightly looser than what you want, it can be temporarily secured with threads around the back of the cabinet.
Press your tube in with the wheel, trim excess cloth off with a scalpel cutting against the back edge of the groove.
Start and finish the tube on the bottom of the cabinet, also plunge in here with the router bit to cut the groove. The keystone shape of the groove is vital. Find plastic tube of a diameter to suit the router bits available. Tube with very little linear stretch is best.
I have tested many cloths made from natural fibers. Linen is an example. Linen was a common cloth used by mfgrs of New England loudspeakers. Think of Advent, AR, etc.,
What I fould was open area and the 'fuzziness' of the fabric were the two most influential variables. Synthetic grille (yes, it's spelled grille) cloth like the black and brown stuff sold by speaker parts outfits have no fuzziness issues and are typically very acoustically transparend.
What I fould was open area and the 'fuzziness' of the fabric were the two most influential variables. Synthetic grille (yes, it's spelled grille) cloth like the black and brown stuff sold by speaker parts outfits have no fuzziness issues and are typically very acoustically transparend.
When I was building my last set of speakers I tested 5 types of grill cloth to see what effect if any they had on the speaker sound.
A simple test was easy to perform as I have a set of speakers with controls to adjust the volume of the mid and treble speakers in 1db steps. I listened to the speakers with and without each grill cloth and with and without the frame - which in this case stands out 1cm from the front of the speaker frames.
I could not hear a difference with or without the frame. ( I suspect there is some difference but that it is not enough for me to hear when in front of the speakers)
I could hear a difference with the various grill cloths and it equated to a 1db difference in the treble and around a 1/2db in the mid range for the medium density cloth - a typical synthetic cloth that you can just see through.
Don
A simple test was easy to perform as I have a set of speakers with controls to adjust the volume of the mid and treble speakers in 1db steps. I listened to the speakers with and without each grill cloth and with and without the frame - which in this case stands out 1cm from the front of the speaker frames.
I could not hear a difference with or without the frame. ( I suspect there is some difference but that it is not enough for me to hear when in front of the speakers)
I could hear a difference with the various grill cloths and it equated to a 1db difference in the treble and around a 1/2db in the mid range for the medium density cloth - a typical synthetic cloth that you can just see through.
Don
Try this experiment.
fold up 20 layers of the fabric and lay it over the tweeter.
Do you hear a difference?
If you do then 1 layer will make a difference.
If not then 1 layer will not matter.
"The speaker cloth or grills have no affect on sound quality at all"
This is a qualified statement. It is not saying that grills have no affect on the sound, it is saying that grills have no affect on the sound quality.
What that means is that a good speaker sounds good with the Grills on or off. But just because the speakers sounds good doesn't mean the sound isn't effected in minor ways.
Good is good, but good is not the same as the same.
Commercial Grill Cloth is designed to be acoustically transparent, but it can be expensive and hard to find in colors that appeal to a speaker builder.
Generally, if you go to the fabric store to look for cloth, you want cloth that is reasonably thin with a bit of stretch, preferably two way stretch. Next, given that you can't try it out in the store, the only thing you can determine is its visual transparency. The better you can see through it, the better it will work. My grills are a very common double-knit stretch fabric in black. I've never really notice any difference with the grills on or off.
There is a double stretch velvet-like fabric that is very visually transparent. However, I suspect the fuzzy surface texture is not going to be ideal. Though I wouldn't mind trying it.
The 'wedding veil' mesh, should be extremely acoustically transparent, has a degree of stretch, and is reasonably priced. It is available in assorted colors, and various mesh densities from ulta-fine near silk like density, to very very open mesh. I suspect something in the middle would work best.
Generally with speakers, every time sound passes over a sharp edge, that sharp edge becomes a secondary source of radiated sound. That is one of the reasons people cut back the edges in the area of the drivers or round over the edges of the cabinet.
But, what good does that do if you then put square or rectangular grill frames on the front.
Commercial speaker manufacturers have the advantage in that they can afford to have plastic grill frames molded. The average user can't do that. However, there are grill frame kits available that are similar to the frames used in making screen inserts for doors and windows.
Parts Express Speaker Grill Frame Kit
Notice that these frames are shaped something like Cove Molding. They are very thin near the drivers and flair toward the outer edge, and the edges are smoothly rounded.
I suspect, as a DIYer, you could do something similar with window/door screen frame kits which can be purchased at most home building stores along with the spline (round plastic rope) to press the cloth into the grooves in the screen frame.
These screen frames are generally made of aluminum -
New York Wire 5/16 in. x 84 in. Aluminum Screen Frame-FSP8491-U - The Home Depot
New York Wire 5/16 in. x 84 in. Aluminum Screen Frame-FSP8492-U - The Home Depot
New York Wire 5/16 in. Screen Frame Corners (4-Pack)-FSP8571-U - The Home Depot
New York Wire 5/16 in. x 36 in. Aluminum Screen Frame Kit-FSP8494-U - The Home Depot
You could actually use black window screen as long as the strands are fused and it is stretched tight over the frame. Though personally, I think I would use some type of Lycra/double knit cloth.
Just a few random thoughts.
Steve/bluewizard
This is a qualified statement. It is not saying that grills have no affect on the sound, it is saying that grills have no affect on the sound quality.
What that means is that a good speaker sounds good with the Grills on or off. But just because the speakers sounds good doesn't mean the sound isn't effected in minor ways.
Good is good, but good is not the same as the same.
Commercial Grill Cloth is designed to be acoustically transparent, but it can be expensive and hard to find in colors that appeal to a speaker builder.
Generally, if you go to the fabric store to look for cloth, you want cloth that is reasonably thin with a bit of stretch, preferably two way stretch. Next, given that you can't try it out in the store, the only thing you can determine is its visual transparency. The better you can see through it, the better it will work. My grills are a very common double-knit stretch fabric in black. I've never really notice any difference with the grills on or off.
There is a double stretch velvet-like fabric that is very visually transparent. However, I suspect the fuzzy surface texture is not going to be ideal. Though I wouldn't mind trying it.
The 'wedding veil' mesh, should be extremely acoustically transparent, has a degree of stretch, and is reasonably priced. It is available in assorted colors, and various mesh densities from ulta-fine near silk like density, to very very open mesh. I suspect something in the middle would work best.
Generally with speakers, every time sound passes over a sharp edge, that sharp edge becomes a secondary source of radiated sound. That is one of the reasons people cut back the edges in the area of the drivers or round over the edges of the cabinet.
But, what good does that do if you then put square or rectangular grill frames on the front.
Commercial speaker manufacturers have the advantage in that they can afford to have plastic grill frames molded. The average user can't do that. However, there are grill frame kits available that are similar to the frames used in making screen inserts for doors and windows.
Parts Express Speaker Grill Frame Kit
Notice that these frames are shaped something like Cove Molding. They are very thin near the drivers and flair toward the outer edge, and the edges are smoothly rounded.
I suspect, as a DIYer, you could do something similar with window/door screen frame kits which can be purchased at most home building stores along with the spline (round plastic rope) to press the cloth into the grooves in the screen frame.
These screen frames are generally made of aluminum -
New York Wire 5/16 in. x 84 in. Aluminum Screen Frame-FSP8491-U - The Home Depot
New York Wire 5/16 in. x 84 in. Aluminum Screen Frame-FSP8492-U - The Home Depot
New York Wire 5/16 in. Screen Frame Corners (4-Pack)-FSP8571-U - The Home Depot
New York Wire 5/16 in. x 36 in. Aluminum Screen Frame Kit-FSP8494-U - The Home Depot
You could actually use black window screen as long as the strands are fused and it is stretched tight over the frame. Though personally, I think I would use some type of Lycra/double knit cloth.
Just a few random thoughts.
Steve/bluewizard
Also note it is possible to buy custom made Perforated Metal Speakers Grills -
Custom Steel Speaker Grills Black - Made to Order Black Steel Metal Speaker Grill Baffle Covers to Protect Pro, Car, and Home Audio Speakers.
Though it can get a bit spendy.
Steve/bluewizard
Custom Steel Speaker Grills Black - Made to Order Black Steel Metal Speaker Grill Baffle Covers to Protect Pro, Car, and Home Audio Speakers.
Though it can get a bit spendy.
Steve/bluewizard
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