Do different caps sound different? Absolutely. Does a Mundorf Supreme sound better than a standard Solen? Absolutely, if you think that it should. Hearing, quite obviously, is 100% about perception. It is also the sense that can most easily be manipulated.
Two speakers, one finished in high gloss rosewood, on absolutely gorgeous milled aluminum spikes and with little accents here and there and one made of scrap stained MDF with chips out of the side panels (not mechanically hampered in any way, only visually). Internally, they are 100% identical and have identical components and identical measured responses. Every single time, the first one will sound better to you during an A/B. Also, every single time, when listened to separately, the first one will sound better and leave a better impression. The moment you are unable to see the speakers, they will then sound the same. Your vision has told you that one is worse, so you hear it as being worse.
You might also have a cheap 27" CRT television with your 7.1 system and then when you upgrade to a 60" curved panel, somehow the sound improves. Every single time.
The point of my rambling is this: it is well known that when you expect to hear a difference, you will. It matters not that the sound waves reaching your ear drum are identical. Your perception and processing when biased by external factors such as looks and price tells you there is a difference. Just imagine if those gorgeous Mundorf caps were instead finished in unmarked dull black spray paint. Do you really think you'd buy them over another flashier one?
To finally answer the question, yes, capacitors can measure differently for scientific reasons. I myself use PP bypass caps around large electrolytics in midrange high-pass sections due to the lytics' high ESR. The esoteric capacitors which people claim to hear absolutely definite changes in soundstaging, imaging and tonality sound different for scientific reasons also. Difference is, those scientific reasons are based on subjective perception rather than objective differences. Think about it like this: you don't want the capacitor to sound like anything, so why pay money for a cap that sounds "tight, controlled, with an emphasis on upper treble...." when what you really want is a capacitor that gives nothing to the circuit but its filtering capabilities?
Have fun shopping.
Two speakers, one finished in high gloss rosewood, on absolutely gorgeous milled aluminum spikes and with little accents here and there and one made of scrap stained MDF with chips out of the side panels (not mechanically hampered in any way, only visually). Internally, they are 100% identical and have identical components and identical measured responses. Every single time, the first one will sound better to you during an A/B. Also, every single time, when listened to separately, the first one will sound better and leave a better impression. The moment you are unable to see the speakers, they will then sound the same. Your vision has told you that one is worse, so you hear it as being worse.
You might also have a cheap 27" CRT television with your 7.1 system and then when you upgrade to a 60" curved panel, somehow the sound improves. Every single time.
The point of my rambling is this: it is well known that when you expect to hear a difference, you will. It matters not that the sound waves reaching your ear drum are identical. Your perception and processing when biased by external factors such as looks and price tells you there is a difference. Just imagine if those gorgeous Mundorf caps were instead finished in unmarked dull black spray paint. Do you really think you'd buy them over another flashier one?
To finally answer the question, yes, capacitors can measure differently for scientific reasons. I myself use PP bypass caps around large electrolytics in midrange high-pass sections due to the lytics' high ESR. The esoteric capacitors which people claim to hear absolutely definite changes in soundstaging, imaging and tonality sound different for scientific reasons also. Difference is, those scientific reasons are based on subjective perception rather than objective differences. Think about it like this: you don't want the capacitor to sound like anything, so why pay money for a cap that sounds "tight, controlled, with an emphasis on upper treble...." when what you really want is a capacitor that gives nothing to the circuit but its filtering capabilities?
Have fun shopping.
I can accept that electromechanical systems like speakers may require some break in as the compliance of the mechanical components (surround, spider, etc.) may change during initial use.
I can also accept it in the case of Vacuum Tubes where the tubes have been setting in storage for decades. Getter activation and shift in quality of vacuum within the tube could account for changes in transfer curve characteristics.
Capacitor break, in I'm a bit more skeptical about as I've not seen a valid explanation for any physical changes which would account for changes in behavior.
I can also accept it in the case of Vacuum Tubes where the tubes have been setting in storage for decades. Getter activation and shift in quality of vacuum within the tube could account for changes in transfer curve characteristics.
Capacitor break, in I'm a bit more skeptical about as I've not seen a valid explanation for any physical changes which would account for changes in behavior.
Hi Gimp - been a while
Now if the cap is twisted in layers of oil. At first its quite randomly packed with varying distance between the layers. Put polarity on it and it stiffens directly as a baloon. Put alternating current upon it it will eventually find its equilibrium where it's most restful. So yes - caps will sound as they should after a time of usage - for the better or worse? Thats a totaly different question that no one can forsee
Regards
Re capacitors can you hear the difference
Thanks folks for your help , my speakers have improved in sound quality now they have had 6 months of use , weather that is down to the caps or speakers who knows, i used the clarity cap mr for the tweeter, i was going to buy 4 mundorf supreme try them in one speaker if there is a difference i would buy another 4 if not put a mix in both and call it a day. phil.
Thanks folks for your help , my speakers have improved in sound quality now they have had 6 months of use , weather that is down to the caps or speakers who knows, i used the clarity cap mr for the tweeter, i was going to buy 4 mundorf supreme try them in one speaker if there is a difference i would buy another 4 if not put a mix in both and call it a day. phil.
these people compared Mylar, Al Electros and PP with clear preconceived bias for hearing differences given their apologetic presentation of their null listening data
Capacitor "Sound" in Microphone Preamplifier DC Blocking and HPF Applications: Comparing Measurements to Listening Tests
Author:Gaskell, Robert-Eric
Affiliation:McGill University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada
AES Convention:130 (May 2011)Paper Number: 8350
Publication Date:May 13, 2011
there are objective spec differences in caps (and inductors) that could make audible frequency response changes in loudspeaker power XO circuits - and often the datasheets for the caps and simple engineering calculation and comparison with Clark's abx frequency response thresholds will be telling
Capacitor "Sound" in Microphone Preamplifier DC Blocking and HPF Applications: Comparing Measurements to Listening Tests
Author:Gaskell, Robert-Eric
Affiliation:McGill University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada
AES Convention:130 (May 2011)Paper Number: 8350
Publication Date:May 13, 2011
there are objective spec differences in caps (and inductors) that could make audible frequency response changes in loudspeaker power XO circuits - and often the datasheets for the caps and simple engineering calculation and comparison with Clark's abx frequency response thresholds will be telling
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In coupling applications, there is a fairly large change when going from polar/bipolar to film, such as mylar. Better than mylar the differences become harder to hear and measure. BUT, in speaker cross-overs, a lot of voltage can be dropped across the capacitor and also a lot of Amperes can flow thru them to the loudspeaker. This condition (or even a lower powered EQ/filter circuits) leads to greater unwanted side affects.
THx-RNMarsh
THx-RNMarsh
yeah - 30-40 years ago, silver mica vs polystryrene in RIAA circuits, each matched with cap meter, recently with caps in speakers - depending upon what's being done, I like the old Russian PIO caps for mid and tweeter - some cheap polystyrenes measure fine (Chinese "Audiophiler") - my measurement methods are limited but should be ok in the audio band. Use what's affordable and sounds best overall.
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My experience has since the fine article by Walt and RN has been much along those line with the break for me at polyprop rather than mylar . As for cost once you get past polyprop you are on the very steep part of the curve for cost value ratio . I like copper and polyprop as the top of what I will spend . Have friend that would go copper and teflon but that is a point that I will not spend. At the copper Teflon point redesign the circuit to be direct coupled with more power supplies and even servo are far more cost effective than using the very expensive coupling cap . Given that no cap sounds like no cap at all IMHO . Cap do sound different but many ARE OVER PRICED because the market will allow it and demand is so small that production cost are spread over very few caps.
To my knowledge, I have only possibly heard cap break-in once.
I was listening to music, and heard this 'click' that could not be explained. Back to the same point, no click in the recording. It definitely came from the speaker's direction. Seconds later- the other channel did it!! I know of 2 other people that have experienced this phenomena, however- only with Solens.
If I could repeat this event, I would, as I'd like to try and measure it....
FWIW, last weekend in Louisville, KY, I switched a cap in a tweeter circuit on the fly, and most could tell me what they heard, and were in agreement. One was a standard low-cost metal-poly, and the other was a Northcreek Zen. They did not know what the items being switched were, or what was even swapped in the circuit.
It was a difference of size of image/soundstage mainly, and a bit of sparkle on the lesser expansive. I'm not making this up.
As a whole...Sometimes there is no difference, sometimes it's subtle, and sometimes jaws drop.
Later,
Wolf
I was listening to music, and heard this 'click' that could not be explained. Back to the same point, no click in the recording. It definitely came from the speaker's direction. Seconds later- the other channel did it!! I know of 2 other people that have experienced this phenomena, however- only with Solens.
If I could repeat this event, I would, as I'd like to try and measure it....
FWIW, last weekend in Louisville, KY, I switched a cap in a tweeter circuit on the fly, and most could tell me what they heard, and were in agreement. One was a standard low-cost metal-poly, and the other was a Northcreek Zen. They did not know what the items being switched were, or what was even swapped in the circuit.
It was a difference of size of image/soundstage mainly, and a bit of sparkle on the lesser expansive. I'm not making this up.
As a whole...Sometimes there is no difference, sometimes it's subtle, and sometimes jaws drop.
Later,
Wolf
Yes- the Solens are a metallized-poly that is considered 'self-healing'. A Film/Foil would not be. That is a decent thought towards what happened, but for both to do it less than a minute apart? I don't even know for certain that it was caps in my case, but I could not find any other idea that would surmise the question. Being that others have experienced it, I figured it very likely could have been that.
Later,
Wolf
I have 2 friends that have also heard this. Please don't be so blatantly rude.
Think what you want,
Wolf
Hi,
Sorry if I came across that way but what you've been stating is just not possible.
Cheers,
Then I/we don't know what is causing it. Drivers were broken in and not being taxed. No equipment was 'new', and I'd had the same setup for awhile at that point. Solen Caps were maybe a half hour of use. Single speaker effect then the other about a minute or 2 apart, distinctly from one channel then the other, and it was not in the recording. Sounded like a 'quiet' relay snapping.
If you can't explain what the phenomena actually was, then I'll have to believe what I currently do about this, as I have no other explanation. I cannot seem to recreate it either. Coils and resistors can't/don't have anything that 'forms' or such like capacitors can.
I'm not just saying this off the cuff, as I've done my homework. It's the only thing that makes sense, and peers have also noticed it.
Later,
Wolf
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