KEF always have used a lot of parts and a lot of electrolytics too.
I also have a small anecdote about parts choices.
The Virgo 2 was my most successfull product. I sold 1000nth of pairs.
The quality of the crossover parts was average but it had a spectacular good sound in it´s days. Years later some customers wanted to update. The most elaborate mod was using Jensen copper foil paper in oil everywhere. After the mod the customer called me up and said that there is more detail resolution but the magic was gone.
I encouraged him to build back to original spec and he was happy.
I also have a small anecdote about parts choices.
The Virgo 2 was my most successfull product. I sold 1000nth of pairs.
The quality of the crossover parts was average but it had a spectacular good sound in it´s days. Years later some customers wanted to update. The most elaborate mod was using Jensen copper foil paper in oil everywhere. After the mod the customer called me up and said that there is more detail resolution but the magic was gone.
I encouraged him to build back to original spec and he was happy.
So asking Sy to adhere to his own standards he imposes on others in discussion, stating he ruined the sound (subjective evaluation) is nitpicking and boring ...
I'm glad you pointed that out , is Sy listening ...?
Last edited:
They even had electrolytics before the woofers and a coil before the tweeter :Ccrossover for 105.2
I wish we could talk Jan into doing an article with these conditions. I think it would be most helpful to putting this whole thing to rest. I guess in reality it might be very difficult, as many of the caps reviewed probably have different ESR values and this would result in such a significant change in the frequency response of the network, that it would invalidate the whole test. It may explain why caps possibly sound different, but does little to help with the quantification of their quality.
I am aware of ESR and its possible effects. Not very good with Spice so I guess that means it is not possible for me to understand, but I do my best.
Yep ,
Witness someone ruin a Duntech sovereign by replacing every item with upgrade "better parts" the biggest offender when doing upgrades are actually from coils , measure the bandwidth mag/freq on aircore vs litz vs foil coils and you can imàgine the changes heard when upgrading ....
Just match TF , easy way to see what you are doing when upgrading ...,,
How are you determining phase angle changes , were you actually able to measure ...
Actually modern film types have fairly low ESR and should not
differ much between themselves. It's easy to test by measuring
impulse response of the speakers, in our case with different caps.
FR curve shows any changes introduced by ESR and capacitance.
Measuring distortion is beneficial too.
There is this program Boxsim by Visaton for simulating speakers and
filters. It's easy to work with and gives you ability to place filter parts
where you want them. Visaton drivers are in database but you can always
import any other frd and zma files to work with.
Last edited:
Like Lojzek, I use Boxsim for most simulations. I have often redesigned bass crossovers with less or more resistance in the shunt arm. Well, it's often been a disaster on listening, despite a cleaner-looking woofer rolloff.
Phase alignment within 5-10 degrees is really crucial for a good sounding speaker. And it's very sensitive to small changes.
Attachments
So asking Sy to adhere to his own standards he imposes on others in discussion, stating he ruined the sound (subjective evaluation) is nitpicking and boring ...
I'm glad you pointed that out , is Sy listening ...?
You are once again missing the point. SYs post wasn't about the sound, it was about how changing the ESR can alter things for the worse, so swap out lytics at your peril.
And sims almost always match up with real world measurements, especially when it comes to seeing how adding a little series resistance to a component affects things.
Nothing wrong with sims as 5th element points out. I changed the shunt here to 15R and 3.3uF which looked good on paper. But It sounded terrible. It had lost the magic. It was the phase that was the problem.
Here's the 8" bass plus cone tweeter crossover that worked, and I really should have included it in the previous post since it's no secret. Just your regular KEF type negative polarity filter. It's slightly sensitive to Capacitor ESR, very sensitive to driver alignment within 1 cm and a bit sensitive to your listening position, which I generally work out to be horizontal.
That's how it is.
Here's the 8" bass plus cone tweeter crossover that worked, and I really should have included it in the previous post since it's no secret. Just your regular KEF type negative polarity filter. It's slightly sensitive to Capacitor ESR, very sensitive to driver alignment within 1 cm and a bit sensitive to your listening position, which I generally work out to be horizontal.
That's how it is.
Attachments
Last edited:
If the above is true, then a blind listening test would reveal a great deal. I was worried that it would be difficult to avoid great differences in the measured parameters of the various capacitors, even though they were supposed to be the same.
Nope you are the one missing my point , very much so , Sy's lack of response and calling me a troll is very telling from one caught up in his own web ...
Nothing wrong with sims as 5th element points out. I changed the shunt here to 15R and 3.3uF which looked good on paper. But It sounded terrible. It had lost the magic. It was the phase that was the problem.
Here's the 8" bass plus cone tweeter crossover that worked, and I really should have included it in the previous post since it's no secret. Just your regular KEF type negative polarity filter. It's slightly sensitive to Capacitor ESR, very sensitive to driver alignment within 1 cm and a bit sensitive to your listening position, which I generally work out to be horizontal.
That's how it is.
Where did i say something was wrong with sims, I only wanted to know if you measured or from sims ....
Where did i say something was wrong with sims, I only wanted to know if you measured or from sims ....
I really don't know how I design and modify speakers, it's just intuitive at a certain level.
Something to do with left brain or right brain. I usually see her dancing clockwise. Which means I'm right brained, and a bit odd and dreamy, rather than logical. But hey, why fight it?
Which Way Do You Spin… Left Brain or Right Brain? | Lateral Action
But it has to make my ears happy in the end.
Last edited:
Okay fine I will entertain you, yes, you have a point, how exactly did it affect the sound, was this a double blind listening test, what measurements were performed etc - we don't know - but this isn't really important. Why? Because this was not SYs original intent with his post. The post was meant to be taken to read - Film caps and non polar lytics have one major difference, film caps have significantly lower ESR than lytics do. If the loudspeaker designer has used lytics and has factored their higher ESR into the design of said speaker, then changing all the lytics for low ESR film caps will only alter the performance of the loudspeaker for the worst.
You however decided to focus all your attention on the part where SY said it ruined the sound and tried to pick it apart. This was not necessary as it wasn't the important, nor the meaningful part of his original post. The previous bit was.
Where did i say something was wrong with sims, I only wanted to know if you measured or from sims ....
Maybe you need to change your internet etiquette. Finishing a sentence with '...' implies that you found something wrong with it. And asking the question in the first place - was this measured or just simulated - implies that you have a problem with one or the other. Because if you didn't have a problem with one of them you wouldn't have asked.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.