Been working on my big studio monitors here for a while and finally feel they are coming down the home stretch. What we have now is the big SEOS 24 with the radian 951BePb on top, the subs are jbl w15gti's. Those two parts I am very happy with. The 951's are practically sleeping at domestic levels covering 500 and up.
The mids there are aura NS6's that were built as a stop gap, the outside pairs are shaded .5 style.
But now looking to build the mids and tops into one big corner horn box (thinking bamboo and phenolic resin if I can find anyone who will cnc it). So each cab would be diysoundgroub "daniel" style with two 10s or maybe 2 12s under the WGs. The short list seems to be Seas excel w26's or TD10's, 10nw64's volt 2500.4 I believe either hi-fi or pro woofers would meet my spl needs (even the ns6's play fairly loud, I would like maybe just a tad more headroom). But I do like to switch off the subs to have typical 'bookshelf' response.
It's all active with hypex hamps (700s for the mids 180s for the 951s). Suggestions?
The mids there are aura NS6's that were built as a stop gap, the outside pairs are shaded .5 style.
But now looking to build the mids and tops into one big corner horn box (thinking bamboo and phenolic resin if I can find anyone who will cnc it). So each cab would be diysoundgroub "daniel" style with two 10s or maybe 2 12s under the WGs. The short list seems to be Seas excel w26's or TD10's, 10nw64's volt 2500.4 I believe either hi-fi or pro woofers would meet my spl needs (even the ns6's play fairly loud, I would like maybe just a tad more headroom). But I do like to switch off the subs to have typical 'bookshelf' response.
It's all active with hypex hamps (700s for the mids 180s for the 951s). Suggestions?
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Yeah I've messed with it, tried this setup without the ns6 boxes. It sounded/tuned better with the ns6's. Maybe cone excursion/IMD issues or they are @ .5 style a better H directivity match...Also I like to be able to switch the subs on and off, and my main listening distance is right up front there C2C is an issue I'm tyring to watch.
Additionally since everything is sealed I'm trying to get close to my desired house curve with less eq. Running some mid-woofers without a high pass filter or only a 1st order one seems to work the best here.
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Very open to subjective thoughts...maybe the term *best* isn't so good, but you know, I'm trying to pick the best ones for this application.
Punchy dynamic 10"s (or maybe 12's) that are well made in the sense that they don't have mechanical resonances are what I'm looking for. Ns6 have a (frame?) resonance at 314hz, Eb below middle C really excites this....I have it notched out but that obviously isn't ideal.
Punchy dynamic 10"s (or maybe 12's) that are well made in the sense that they don't have mechanical resonances are what I'm looking for. Ns6 have a (frame?) resonance at 314hz, Eb below middle C really excites this....I have it notched out but that obviously isn't ideal.
Thanks for the suggestion Owen-
I think power handling/sensitivity are a little too low for me here. In the studio we have +30dB crest factor when tracking vs the ~14dB you get at home. Speakers will need to have enough max SPL to fully realize the dynamics so that we can optimize how we go about taming them.
Or picture it this way, I need to be able to plug a bass guitar right into them and turn it up enough for him to hear.
Also not really looking for great value parts, the *tweeters* were already 3k alone. Bamboo/Phenolic cabs are going to cost that much again. Lucky for me it's a tax write off.
Pro woofers all look pretty good for this application (or TD10) but generally they are so optimized for sealed cabs. It would be nice to get below 100hz without the subs turned on...
I think power handling/sensitivity are a little too low for me here. In the studio we have +30dB crest factor when tracking vs the ~14dB you get at home. Speakers will need to have enough max SPL to fully realize the dynamics so that we can optimize how we go about taming them.
Or picture it this way, I need to be able to plug a bass guitar right into them and turn it up enough for him to hear.
Also not really looking for great value parts, the *tweeters* were already 3k alone. Bamboo/Phenolic cabs are going to cost that much again. Lucky for me it's a tax write off.
Pro woofers all look pretty good for this application (or TD10) but generally they are so optimized for sealed cabs. It would be nice to get below 100hz without the subs turned on...
I think any number of pro audio 10s and 12s will do for your purposes. But I'm sure you're aware that you won't get flat to 50Hz in a closed box, especially not a small one. As long as you're sticking with a sealed box, you're going to need EQ, reducing your headroom.
A pair of Beyma 12MW/Nd will do about 115dB at 50Hz, but if you're running them in a 2 cu ft sealed box you'll need 9dB worth of Linkwitz Transform boost to get them flat to a F3 of 50Hz. A single driver in a same sized vented box tuned to 51Hz will get you 3dB more output going just as deep without any EQ, but many people don't seem to like the sound of vented boxes. Though I suppose the "typical bookshelf response" you're after will usually also be a vented speaker, so perhaps emulating this sound wouldn't be so bad? Well, it's up to you of course, but check out the Beyma driver, the published measurements look really nice, I haven't used it personally though.
A pair of Beyma 12MW/Nd will do about 115dB at 50Hz, but if you're running them in a 2 cu ft sealed box you'll need 9dB worth of Linkwitz Transform boost to get them flat to a F3 of 50Hz. A single driver in a same sized vented box tuned to 51Hz will get you 3dB more output going just as deep without any EQ, but many people don't seem to like the sound of vented boxes. Though I suppose the "typical bookshelf response" you're after will usually also be a vented speaker, so perhaps emulating this sound wouldn't be so bad? Well, it's up to you of course, but check out the Beyma driver, the published measurements look really nice, I haven't used it personally though.
Yeah thanks, the beyma looks really nice. Also the 12p80nd was one I was eyeballing...and yeah that is generally the issue with pro drivers, it seems that maybe the TD10/12 X S and H are the only ones that are even a little bit one foot in the hi-fi world, one foot in the pro world. Especially as I desire a darker house curve, I know that a linkwitz transform will ultimately be necessary, but ideally looking for that driver that trades down from 97dB efficiency to say 92 (they will be used in pairs per side) in exchange for a little more extension. Maybe 50hz is unrealistic, 60 maybe 70 would be good, 100 is getting a little too high. When they are all playing the overall eq needed to hit the house curve should be less as they sum more as it gets lower. Being able to switch off the subs is just about getting rid of the potential distraction/masking of the deep bass.
The boxes can be as big as ~7 cubic feet, so that may help.
I don't have an axe to grind when it comes to sealed vs ported. But I have found that in cases where there is an overlap of drivers instead of a crossover, ported cabs are much tougher to get a good response out at the listening position than sealed (presumably due to the group delay). Aside from obviously needing to blend with the w15gti's, I also have a bunch of tang band w6's I'm planning on experimenting with for distributed subs. Of course it's all active so I would experiment with eq'ing each driver, but in general I've had better luck keeping correction minimal in the XO part, and eqing the whole system, a task the NS6 aren't quite up to at higher levels.
OK, I think I see what you are after. What I'd do if I were you is simply go through PA mfgs' catalogs and look at the drivers with less than 95dB sensitivity (there won't be that many) and see how they look in Hornresp (or winisd if that's more your bag).
At quick glance, there's two that popped out at me, the Beyma 10BR60V2 and the B&C 12BG100, so I ran them through Hornresp. The B&C will need a few dB of EQ to flatten out, but not much (about 4dB in a 200l box for a pair), and it has a tonne of xvar and power handling, so it will give you a good amount of SPL, even with the EQ. It however has a fairly big resonance peak at 1.5kHz, so you'll need a steep crossover to the compression driver.
The Beyma on the other hand will play down to 50Hz without any EQ in a 200l cabinet for 2 drivers - the problem is it doesn't have a lot of xmax or pmax, so it wont give you nearly as much SPL. If you want some exact numbers, the two Beymas offer 8dB more displacement than the four Auras, and two of the B&Cs would offer another 8dB more than the Beymas.
I'd take a different approach and keep it a three way. Replace the JBL 15's with a single pro 18 and do dual 8-10" midranges in a sealed box to 100hz where the 18 can easily take over and get you to well below 50hz need be and still provide the headroom you need.
I'd love to hear those SEOS24's some day....gotta be special with the Be diaphrams!
I'd love to hear those SEOS24's some day....gotta be special with the Be diaphrams!
Ah I think I didn't explain well. I want to subs to go down to 20hz, I just want to also be able to turn them off, and be left with a 2 way with reasonably decent extension.
Hey if you are ever in Denver let me know...
Why are you limiting yourself to a 10 or 12? Imo, you would be very happy with a TD15S under each SEOS 24. I too am running SEOS 24's, but with a TD15M in a passive resistance enclosure beneath it (to maintain cardioid directivity) down to 150hz, then a TD15S takes over below there. I only added a couple dB of bass boost and am flat down to 25hz. The 15S is very clean up past 1k, so you shouldn't have any issues.
Yeah the looking for lower sensitivity trick seems to give some results...the crossover point is 500hz and active so breakups at 1.5k shouldn't be a problem.
A pair of 10s is a better directivity match to the 24 I believe, I'm not inclined to think 12's would be the end of the world...but the the running theory seems to be that the 10s would be the sweet spot.
Hmm, they all have about the same BL around 16 except the M...The S would get me the closest to target roll off. Inspite of being active, the ranges of the W15gti's and the 10s will likely be overlapping here, which means eq'ing one or the other separately is messy (this is my experience from tons of testing...).
But yeah, I think the TD10S is still looking like the front runner. But this brings up a good point, with only 90dB sensitivity, I'm not ruling out hifi drivers that are in that ballpark. Eton 11-581?
Primary listening distance is only ~70 inches. CTC spacing gets a little high...What CDs are you running?
Nice, I wish I could compare the 951's to the BMS...On that note I guess you are probably correct that the 15"s would work just fine. It's just expensive and time consuming to actually compare them, seems better to err on the safe side. Crossover to NS6 is easy peasy.
The difference between the 15's is only a couple more inches, but it would put the WG's higher than I would ideally like without rebuilding the subs. Do you have a build thread? Curious about those cardiod boxes...I've been tempted to go that route.
The difference between the 15's is only a couple more inches, but it would put the WG's higher than I would ideally like without rebuilding the subs. Do you have a build thread? Curious about those cardiod boxes...I've been tempted to go that route.
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So after doing a bunch of modeling in WinISD, it's looking like the TD10S is tough to beat. The Beyma 10BR60v2 looks good, and would probably be enough SPL, but I'd rather err on the safe side. A suprise contender is a Aurum Cantus AC250. I wish there were more people using/testing these, it ticks a lot of boxes for me.
Quick question on AE woofers, do people think the apollo upgrade is worth it for sound quality? I don't need that much power handling, but shorting rings still lower disto right?
Quick question on AE woofers, do people think the apollo upgrade is worth it for sound quality? I don't need that much power handling, but shorting rings still lower disto right?
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