mid-bass prototype
Josh,
Thanks for the interest, but the mid-bass horn pictured was purely an experiment in loading a push-pull slot loaded compression chamber with the horn shown in the pic. The results are mixed. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread (by Lynn) my findings are [also] the push-pull slot is limited to frequencies below 180Hz (my estimation only, Lynn commented on an even lower frequency limit). The absolute FORTE of this system though, is the
DYNAMIC THWACK of a bass drum. I'm thinking this is more a result of the reaction-cancelling mounting. There's more testing to be done, for sure.
Josh,
Thanks for the interest, but the mid-bass horn pictured was purely an experiment in loading a push-pull slot loaded compression chamber with the horn shown in the pic. The results are mixed. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread (by Lynn) my findings are [also] the push-pull slot is limited to frequencies below 180Hz (my estimation only, Lynn commented on an even lower frequency limit). The absolute FORTE of this system though, is the
DYNAMIC THWACK of a bass drum. I'm thinking this is more a result of the reaction-cancelling mounting. There's more testing to be done, for sure.
EWith this all the way. Bass to the treble
Thing is you dont need the Alnico effect or 2nd order HD if you are not getting all the higher stuff and have a very life like sound. I dont get the tuby thing if I get real life sound. My DHT isfacing a head down battle with my big class A SS. I listen tothem both almost every day. If you get it right you dont need any of these gizmos.
Totally understand those who want that special effect so then go for it.
But many of us do want hifidelity and this should be vanishing HD
Not new and exciting
POOH: Thanks for your interest. The compression drivers utilized are the
EV DH1506. I like them alot, but they might be considered vintage.
I'm not sure how many "years old" vintage has to be.
The ribbon is the Stage Accompany SA 8535-waveguide loaded
version. I started using it about 12 years ago, and have not looked
at another tweeter since.
The system pictured is not in use at this time, I change out about
every six months or so. Right now, it's "round horn" time.
POOH: Thanks for your interest. The compression drivers utilized are the
EV DH1506. I like them alot, but they might be considered vintage.
I'm not sure how many "years old" vintage has to be.
The ribbon is the Stage Accompany SA 8535-waveguide loaded
version. I started using it about 12 years ago, and have not looked
at another tweeter since.
The system pictured is not in use at this time, I change out about
every six months or so. Right now, it's "round horn" time.
Oh no, if that is true, my impressions of Lynn's taste is totally, destroyed!
They did impress me, and others who heard them. I thought in the genre, they are very good. But the style isn't exactly my taste. I've never thought them synthetic, but others have mentioned that. To me, they were what I imagine most subwoofer fans want. Strong, powerful, controlled - maybe a bit artificial, so they are kind of "powerful speaker" sounding - but how do you judge a subwoofer in isolation?
They are a great sounding subwoofer, but I don't believe they are what Lynn is looking for. Perhaps too much Sturm und Drang for the style he seeks.
No bass drivers in hand yet, so no real commitment one way of the other. I agree that the "problem" with the AH425/288 is the large-format setup is very quick and strong in the 700 Hz to 1.5 kHz region, leaving most direct-radiators far behind. Any tendency towards a "petite", small-scaled sound definitely does not work with large-format horns.
The Tone Tubby seemed to play pretty loud, and crossing it below 700 Hz sidesteps the broad elevation above 1 kHz. The TT won't be any less dynamic than the Jensen ... in fact, I'd expect the TT to sound pretty similar, just smoother. The hemp cone, by audition and measurement, seemed to be free of the HF grit and breakup of many pro drivers. Since the VC is almost certainly unity hung, don't expect much excursion out of it ... I think of it as a big low-midrange.
The main task of the 160 Hz to 700 Hz system is to keep up dynamically with the AH425/288 (or Radian 745), while avoiding the time-domain colorations common to many bass horns. This is a tall order. The Altec/GPA 416 and 515 are some of the very few drivers I can think of that can do this; they also have very smooth rolloffs above 1.5 kHz, and don't need the usual prosound brickwall filtering.
It's a crude test, but listening to these big drivers full range tells you a lot about the sound in the HF breakup region, and how they respond to dynamics. The TT is quite listenable; it may not be flat, but I'd take it over Fostex and Lowther any day of the week. The Altec/GPA's are similar, for what it's worth, but more "muscular" sounding, with startling dynamics.
The dynamics are the real calling card of the Altec-family drivers. It's not Klipsch dynamics, but then, it's not Klipsch coloration, either. When people talk about the sometimes flabby bass of the usual bass-reflex Altec setup, that could be nothing more than LF program content below the box frequency driving the underhung VCs into the nonlinear region. Solution, limit the excursion of the drivers, and use them like upper-bass/low-mid drivers.
It's certainly worth trying different boxes for the 160 Hz to 700 Hz driver; at the least, closed-box filled with UltraTouch cotton versus open-back filled with UltraTouch cotton. No box, just a perspex baffle? The low Qts of the Altec/GPA's works against them in that application.
How can a subwoofer have 'style', unless it's generating too much distortion? Either it's reproducing the low frequencies cleanly, or it's not: should be pretty easy to play single tones and listen for obvious 2nd and 3rd harmonics getting onboard ...
Many thanks for the subjective impressions, IslandPink. You've built the Amity amplifier and Ariels, so you know where I'm coming from on the new project. Basically, the classical-music virtues of the previous designs, with more free-swinging dynamics ... 10 dB better if possible. The amplifier has a much easier job, and the loudspeaker itself has more headroom.
The biggest challenge with any conventional vented box is the excess-excursion problem below Fb; unless this is controlled, the woofer VC will be wandering in and out of the linear area of the gap. Underhung VCs, although great for low-mid/upper-bass applications, are going to have real trouble with uncontrolled LF excursion. Overhung VCs, particularly modern ultralong excursion designs, will do a lot better, but you're still wasting valuable system headroom on LF excursions that don't even produce sound (since it falls below the system passband). I surmise this is what's going on with the Onken setup.
I'm not a big fan of passive radiators, but they are a good way to prevent excess LF excursion as well as preventing vent coloration. It's the group-delay implications of passive radiators that bother me a little, although the group-delay peaking is at a very low frequency. I'm conflicted about these gizmos; some problems solved, but some new problems, too. The commercial speakers that use them tend to sound slow and blurry, but we all know how bad commercial realizations can be, so that doesn't tell us much.
Your experience with the 8" Fane in a big Tractrix is most interesting. I was wondering what would happen if a horn with the usual time-domain issues was mated with the very fast-decaying AH425; if I understand right, it exposes the horn that has more reflections.
As for 12" versus 15" for what amounts to a low-midrange/upper-bass driver, as the Brits say, horses for courses (there's no real American equivalent). Both 12" and 15" do Big Dynamics well; maybe 700 Hz is too high for a 15" driver, but the 416 and 515 sound pretty good to me. Would the 414 or Tone Tubby be better? I think there would be a loss of dynamics, at least in the critical 200~400 Hz range, which is more or less the center of the orchestral spectrum, and a region where real power and headroom is needed. This is also why I am especially wary of boost equalization in the same frequency range.
Pano, thanks for the subjective comments on the servo subwoofers. The only commercially available sub that matched the Ariels was the REL Strata; all the rest sounded slow and heavy, no matter what crossover and EQ setting was selected. The big secret of the RELs, from I could tell, were the monitor-grade ATC drivers (if that's what they used 12 years ago). REL certainly charges a pretty penny for their music-grade subwoofers.
Some readers might not care for my emphasis on the subjective qualities of this or that driver; well, it's a big forum, and anyone is free to start their own thread. My experience has been that drivers have distinct "personalities", and that equalization does not make them sound alike ... going further, that excess equalization is a sign of trouble with the driver, and should be avoided if possible. Conversely, if a driver sounds exceptionally good/realistic/musical, there are almost certainly good physical reasons it sounds that way.
Last edited:
Hundreds of us midbass horn people laugh at this. What bass horns have you had in your room?
This is the same thing I found like 20 years ago. It can't be fixed with a box woofer(s), unless you really don't hear the mismatch. I sure do. You just said you did..
IE, the double bass in my system projects with the same 3D vibrant quality as your AH425 does with a violin. That's because it's fully horn loaded
Last edited:
Apparently in 20 years you haven't figured out how to present your opinion in a way people are likely to listen to. There are plenty of reasons one might not want a horn in their room. I don't mind big speakers but don't have the listening distance for midbass horns and proper wavefront integration.
Mr. POOH, I was speaking to IslandPink's experiences, not yours. Nothing personal, but I haven't heard your setup, and have no idea if we have the musical tastes or not. So I have no idea if your subjective experience is the same as mine.
By comparison, as mentioned above, IslandPink has actually built amplifiers and loudspeakers following my designs. In private conversations, he usually comes up with interesting variations that take the designs off in entirely new directions, and give me new ideas as well. If IslandPink says XYZ driver in ABC sounds like thus-and-such, I have a pretty good idea what's he's talking about.
Mr. POOH, I get it. You're an all-horn guy. Understood. But I'm getting tired of your moral judgements. This is an audio forum, not a church, and we're all free to discuss what amount to subjective musical preferences.
By comparison, as mentioned above, IslandPink has actually built amplifiers and loudspeakers following my designs. In private conversations, he usually comes up with interesting variations that take the designs off in entirely new directions, and give me new ideas as well. If IslandPink says XYZ driver in ABC sounds like thus-and-such, I have a pretty good idea what's he's talking about.
Mr. POOH, I get it. You're an all-horn guy. Understood. But I'm getting tired of your moral judgements. This is an audio forum, not a church, and we're all free to discuss what amount to subjective musical preferences.
Last edited:
LOL, moral judgments?
I'm trying to save you another 10 years of dicking around with inferior technology. How is that a "moral judgement?"
Perhaps absolutism is a better way of saying things. I tend to agree that well done horns are likely the best overall solution but size, price/build complexity, and other factors all mean that they are not the end-all be-all. There are certainly many setups in which horns would be a bad match. I'd rather have a little 3" fullrange for nearfield monitors than try to mess with a multiway horn.
Ignorance of the other paths is not superiority. Hell, simple listener preference has some people preferring omnis. They're not wrong- unless they try to pass their views off in an absolute sense.
When somebody says the bass they have won't "keep up" (common term people that have been around horns have heard/used because it is reality) with their 108 db sensitive midrange horn I say, as many have been there say, the sure fire way to fix it is to use a bass horn and be done with it.
I posted a 50 Hz straight horn here a few months ago that has a small footprint. Size isn't too much of a concern if you use room boundaries- path length can be.
Last post in this "beyond the ariel", my "moral judgement"
I posted a 50 Hz straight horn here a few months ago that has a small footprint. Size isn't too much of a concern if you use room boundaries- path length can be.
Last post in this "beyond the ariel", my "moral judgement"
agreed. But 39.75" total length for a 100hz horn is no worse than placing a pair of open baffle speakers 3' from the back wall. See:
DIY 100hz midbass horn - The Paper Horn by Inlow Sound
Last edited: