This is completely over the top of your $400 budget but worth a read nevertheless;
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/download/Humble Homemade Hifi_Serious Sub_copy.pdf
I might add just an opinion that combining dipole sub and sealed sat's can worked pretty good as evidenced by Gradient Revolution speakers that uses this approach.
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/download/Humble Homemade Hifi_Serious Sub_copy.pdf
I might add just an opinion that combining dipole sub and sealed sat's can worked pretty good as evidenced by Gradient Revolution speakers that uses this approach.
after understanding the relation of 'emmittance' and cone size, one possible solution thats popping up is to go for smaller subs(say 6") in an array(say 4 per side). as per my knowledge, this could effectively have acceptable higher SPLs at lowbass range,total air volume moved and still maintain that dynamics. if i am not wrong, may not need huge power also and could get away with max. power supported by the drivers(say 200W max). need to look at other issues such arrays would pose though. anybody tried this?
Hello SoundN,
In interesting thought. There are other complex system design issues to contend with when going multiple drivers.
Re your last post, I've deleted the information you found/quoted as is was inconsistent and confusing. I'm commenting on resonance/emittance. Ive designed and tested allot of cones for several years, but it remains only one of many factors for project designers to consider.
Thanks
Mark.
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Matching an 18"er with full-range drivers seems a little pointless, unless you're chasing infrasonic movie effects. The satellites will probably run out of power handling before the subwoofer starts moving much, for normal music use.
HT is a different matter, as decent 18Hz performance (to pull a number out of the sky) requires a lot of air to be moved.
I'd stick with home drivers - they're likely to have much better distortion performance than a PA woofer, whose primary purpose is to withstand putting out huge SPLs for prolonged periods. Really good PA drivers will sound good while putting out those SPLs, but you'll pay an awful lot for that performance.
Home drivers are intended to sound good, but that makes the assumption that you won't abuse them much.
Avoid using lots of smaller drivers. 4x 6" drivers aren't the same as a single 12" driver: a decent 12" sub can move 1" p/p cleanly. 4x 6" drivers have the same cone area as a 12", but each one would have to move 1" p/p to match the 12"er. This is clearly unacceptable for a 6" driver (there are some that are rated for it, but they won't do it cleanly).
IMO, you'd need 8x 6" drivers to keep up with a single 12" - each 6" would have to move 1/2" p/p, which is more acceptable.
Watch the excursion to diameter ratios if you go down that route.
Chris
HT is a different matter, as decent 18Hz performance (to pull a number out of the sky) requires a lot of air to be moved.
I'd stick with home drivers - they're likely to have much better distortion performance than a PA woofer, whose primary purpose is to withstand putting out huge SPLs for prolonged periods. Really good PA drivers will sound good while putting out those SPLs, but you'll pay an awful lot for that performance.
Home drivers are intended to sound good, but that makes the assumption that you won't abuse them much.
Avoid using lots of smaller drivers. 4x 6" drivers aren't the same as a single 12" driver: a decent 12" sub can move 1" p/p cleanly. 4x 6" drivers have the same cone area as a 12", but each one would have to move 1" p/p to match the 12"er. This is clearly unacceptable for a 6" driver (there are some that are rated for it, but they won't do it cleanly).
IMO, you'd need 8x 6" drivers to keep up with a single 12" - each 6" would have to move 1/2" p/p, which is more acceptable.
Watch the excursion to diameter ratios if you go down that route.
Chris
If you are using a 12in driver and it's moving 1in, then assuming there are no problems with the enclosure alignment, you clearly need to use more of them, or a larger woofer. Or turn the music down since in many cases you'll be listening at levels that will rapidly cause long-term physiological damage. 
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Agreed. The numbers are more to illustrate what I mean: I'd consider 1/2" fairly abusive toward a 6" woofer, too.
That said, the 12" sub I'm using at the moment occasionally gets pushed to 1" p/p travel. It currently resides in a sealed box, so I'm going to go ported and get another - should give everything an easier time.
Only problem is that I'm rather short on space, being in student accomodation. Next year should be better.
Too much power is almost enough...
Chris
That said, the 12" sub I'm using at the moment occasionally gets pushed to 1" p/p travel. It currently resides in a sealed box, so I'm going to go ported and get another - should give everything an easier time.
Only problem is that I'm rather short on space, being in student accomodation. Next year should be better.
Too much power is almost enough...
Chris
That 12in unit must be begging for mercy at the moment -what have you done, presumably Linkwitz-transformed it (or the digital equivalent thereof)?I'm wondering if the CSS XD10 would be a worthwhile addition to the 10.2's in a Pensil or not. They have such amazing quick defined bass with an overall coherency from top to bottom that I could see a sub actually detracting from the whole experience and not adding to it as I have heard in other peoples systems where the woofers can't keep up and have phase issues, room problems etc and just sound overall off. It seems like adding bass is an art in itself that can take a few doodads to make it work.
The other question I have is would a SET 2A3 amp play the 10.2's louder if the CSS SDX10 had a low pass filter to take the weight off down below?
The other question I have is would a SET 2A3 amp play the 10.2's louder if the CSS SDX10 had a low pass filter to take the weight off down below?
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Yup, that's the dilemma presented by well executed wide-band driver such as the 10s or 7.3s . I'm currently running 2 systems with all 7s, (including one pair of the MAOPs), and in the HT system I consider the rather exaggerated tonal balance and image tracking of most sound tracks to render seamless neutrality moot.
How many "perfectly balanced" home theatre systems have most of us had an opportunity with which to "calibrate" our aural matrix? Any retail showroom I've experienced are tweaked to knock your socks off , and I've famously complained about the current "state of the art" of "THX / etc" certified cinema systems. After playing around with a few configurations over the years, I found that multiple separate enclosures (2 in my case) consisting of relatively small diameter woofers (6-8") with smooth response extending several octaves above the nominal XO point seem to provide the cleanest transition. I can live without the gut-wrenching explosions and car / plane / alien space ship crashes - if the story doesn't work without sledgehammering you into your seat with sound, something's much more wrong than your audio rig.
rant off
For 2 channel audio only, yes it can be a bit more challenging - are there constraints to size / number of woofers? The SDX10 are great drivers, but not tiny
as Dave said above
HiVi M6n, Dayton RS180, most of the Peerless 6 1/2, Fountek FW168 can all get into the 30's w/ reasonably sized boxes. Since you will be going w/ a wide range driver, the metal cone breakup should be well down. You should be able to cross at 200 - 400 easy w/ any of these drivers.
I have personal experience with all of these (not all Peerless 6 1/2 obviously).
I have personal experience with all of these (not all Peerless 6 1/2 obviously).
OTOH, don't overlook the huge benefits to be achieved in reduction of excursion related distortion in the midrange and attainable SPLs by even a simple 1st order HP on the wide-band driver, if even for only the bottom octave or 2.
That's actually my plan. But some may want a simple way out and just a sub below the bottom of their full range driver.
also i guess matching a sub at higher xover point is easier than matching it at lower one. right?
Hmm... It seems to me that part of the beauty of a full range driver is that it can cover the full range of the human voice. Crossing in a sub to high is going to muck that up. Probably for any driver combination there is a "sweet spot" but for me anyway I'd be looking for that sweet spot somewhere in the octave of 70 -140Hz, and choose my drivers and enclosures accordingly. Of course the slopes would extend the drivers on either end. Anyway that's my 2 cents worth.
also i guess matching a sub at higher xover point is easier than matching it at lower one. right?
Not necessarily and not in my experience. For me it has been easier to blend a sub near the point where the other speaker rolls off. But that's just my experience, YMMV.
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