Way to go, John, I can only agree. Except, I dispute the digital 'thing'. Once you've heard digital working correctly, and this is harder to make happen than for analogue, then all that way of thinking is thrown in the bin. If one treats digital playback as a trivial issue, something done and dusted years ago, then it will normally be disappointing to people with more attuned hearing; take it seriously OTOH and it will reward one handsomely.
I have to say that analogue replay appears not to be done so well these days, the recent show I went to had very ordinary sound from the TTs, except for one. A friend has a very low cost, highly tweaked analogue setup and this is well ahead of the expensive gear I heard on that day ...
I have to say that analogue replay appears not to be done so well these days, the recent show I went to had very ordinary sound from the TTs, except for one. A friend has a very low cost, highly tweaked analogue setup and this is well ahead of the expensive gear I heard on that day ...
Ed, I hate to be a PITA but...
I finally found a careful study, from an IEEE paper by IBM.
"The results of this investigation indicate that, for an aluminium heat sink, in the test configuration evaluated, the radiation component in a natural convection environment dissipated approximately 5% of the total heat flow."
I finally found a careful study, from an IEEE paper by IBM.
"The results of this investigation indicate that, for an aluminium heat sink, in the test configuration evaluated, the radiation component in a natural convection environment dissipated approximately 5% of the total heat flow."
Fas42, you may be right about digital. So far, I have an OPPO 105, and I have played back Blue Ray, DVD, SACD, and CD. It sounds pretty good, but I am not 'in love' with the sound that I get, and I do not play it so much for emotional enjoyment as intellectual enjoyment. If one does not know this difference, well I doubt that it can be taught, only demonstrated.
It is like hearing your first live Strad. violin, either you are moved, or you don't appreciate the sonic differences in musical instruments.
To be honest, I have FAR MORE invested in my phono playback, mostly because I make the electronics myself and I have friends in the industry, who I can make trades with. It would be difficult to afford what I have, if the expense came directly out of my own salary at retail.
I realize, from the opinions of many others, that they really like digital playback, some of whom have invested a similar amount into their digital playback equipment, and some of whom have not invested much into the equipment.
All that I can personally say, is that I do not find digital playback with most systems in my personal experience, to sound as 'emotionally right' as vinyl or analog tape playback.
Heck, some people are happy with MP3! '-)
It is like hearing your first live Strad. violin, either you are moved, or you don't appreciate the sonic differences in musical instruments.
To be honest, I have FAR MORE invested in my phono playback, mostly because I make the electronics myself and I have friends in the industry, who I can make trades with. It would be difficult to afford what I have, if the expense came directly out of my own salary at retail.
I realize, from the opinions of many others, that they really like digital playback, some of whom have invested a similar amount into their digital playback equipment, and some of whom have not invested much into the equipment.
All that I can personally say, is that I do not find digital playback with most systems in my personal experience, to sound as 'emotionally right' as vinyl or analog tape playback.
Heck, some people are happy with MP3! '-)
Yep, you have to have had "the experience" to know what's possible. Very little of what I hear elsewhere is up to scratch, typically there is a somewhat "dead" or flat quality to the sound, this is the classic digital style playback distortion.
The "emotional oomph" of digital done right is overpowering, as good as any analogue I've heard; these days a really well sorted out music server setup should have a better chance of getting it right ...
The "emotional oomph" of digital done right is overpowering, as good as any analogue I've heard; these days a really well sorted out music server setup should have a better chance of getting it right ...
Part of the problem is that the optimal point is like balancing on a knife edge if one doesn't have everything under control. Go in one direction and you have oodles of detail, the system is belting you over the head with OTT treble and and shrieking midrange; so, ease off to get the sound more "cuddly" and then it all sounds washed out, no body to it. It's not easy to get there - basically a process of elimination of all the weak links in the whole system ...
I cannot hear this digital playback distortion, and digital sourced music sounds great to me, does this mean I'm not an audiophile
Rather, did you check your hearing limits? (no offense intended, the issues of digital are all at HF).
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Originally quoted by Telstar
Answer 2: For you to hear stuff its got to be in the audible band.
My original answer was my gentle rebuff to both John and Fas42, cos I don't agree with them regarding digital audio reproduction, sound fine to me, no problems, unlike records, scratchy things
But then again listening on a Binatone Stereo, having cloth ears and a flat cap makes me probably not the best to judge sound quality, but I must say that Grimethorpe colliery band have never sounded better than they do on CD.
Answer 1: As I get older my bat senses diminish, bloody hell, I cant hear anything above 10MHz these days
Answer 2: For you to hear stuff its got to be in the audible band.
My original answer was my gentle rebuff to both John and Fas42, cos I don't agree with them regarding digital audio reproduction, sound fine to me, no problems, unlike records, scratchy things
But then again listening on a Binatone Stereo, having cloth ears and a flat cap makes me probably not the best to judge sound quality, but I must say that Grimethorpe colliery band have never sounded better than they do on CD.
hmm, so cost effective = not effective? seems to me that would be classified cost ineffective...
John, I think you would be surprised at Franks system, definitely from his descriptions it would qualify for cost effective. but then hes singing your tune, so... you agree with him...
its cheaper to put together a good digital system than analogue and even 'cost effective' (whatever that means, you seem to have a different; negative meaning) systems can produce excellent results. I think this is another example of you not acting on open minded experience, rather preconceptions and prejudices. (by open-minded I dont mean 'easily convinced' of tall tales)
John, I think you would be surprised at Franks system, definitely from his descriptions it would qualify for cost effective. but then hes singing your tune, so... you agree with him...
its cheaper to put together a good digital system than analogue and even 'cost effective' (whatever that means, you seem to have a different; negative meaning) systems can produce excellent results. I think this is another example of you not acting on open minded experience, rather preconceptions and prejudices. (by open-minded I dont mean 'easily convinced' of tall tales)
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qusp,
I have to agree with you that we can do great things with digital these days. I would have to quantify that though with the realization that just as in analog equipment there are differences with digital playback. I have two different CD players and they sound so different you would think that you were playing two different disks when going back and forth between the units. So there are quality issues and implementation to look out for. I wouldn't include anything that uses the MP3 format in any comparisons, just not going to be a fair comparison between analog and digital formats if you include that format in the tests. I do still have my TT and vinyl but also have digital disks and the sonic differences are many but they both have a place in my audio world. I don't expect to get rid of my vinyl any time soon.
I have to agree with you that we can do great things with digital these days. I would have to quantify that though with the realization that just as in analog equipment there are differences with digital playback. I have two different CD players and they sound so different you would think that you were playing two different disks when going back and forth between the units. So there are quality issues and implementation to look out for. I wouldn't include anything that uses the MP3 format in any comparisons, just not going to be a fair comparison between analog and digital formats if you include that format in the tests. I do still have my TT and vinyl but also have digital disks and the sonic differences are many but they both have a place in my audio world. I don't expect to get rid of my vinyl any time soon.
of course, I dont think anyone is saying that any old digital junk sounds good because bits are bits... (ive got ~4K into my 4 channel DIY ESS dac...) we are audio enthusiasts here.
but for example, for good quality/reasonably priced, I could put together a good quality dac and digital pre for under 1K, to match that with new analogue gear... not so easy methinks, just the cost of a reasonable switch/volume control takes a good chunk out of that.
to build a phono pre, volume control plus buy a decent new TT and cart, I dont know much about new analogue kit, but I dont think it would be an easy task?
I think TT still have their place, but for me thats mostly archival purposes these days, I listened to vinyl a long time while CDs were available, as CD players and digital production wasnt quite up to snuff back then (80's-early 90's), but I dont have a place for it in my current system (its still set up in the lounge, just a downsized, oldish technics), its simply too high maintenance and takes up too much room. I personally dont think its as good sounding as digital now, once I get past the nostalgia.
but for example, for good quality/reasonably priced, I could put together a good quality dac and digital pre for under 1K, to match that with new analogue gear... not so easy methinks, just the cost of a reasonable switch/volume control takes a good chunk out of that.
to build a phono pre, volume control plus buy a decent new TT and cart, I dont know much about new analogue kit, but I dont think it would be an easy task?
I think TT still have their place, but for me thats mostly archival purposes these days, I listened to vinyl a long time while CDs were available, as CD players and digital production wasnt quite up to snuff back then (80's-early 90's), but I dont have a place for it in my current system (its still set up in the lounge, just a downsized, oldish technics), its simply too high maintenance and takes up too much room. I personally dont think its as good sounding as digital now, once I get past the nostalgia.
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