Thanks Dario,
the choice is between Vishay V-735 P, about 8 euro, and Audyn true copper that costs 35 euro
.Clarity Cap MR are also quite expensive.
I maybe will look for a mid price solution...
bye
I suppose well, can't see particular problems.
It's possible that a soft start circuit could become useful/necessary, maybe Andrew can help in this regard.
F&T is a very good manifacturer, the SI serie should be pretty similar to the previous generation Mundorfs (also made by F&T)
Bob appreciated a lot Audyn Cap Plus, maybe be you can give them a try.
Correct.
I would have no reservations in recommending the Audyn Plus as the best "value solution" in that position. I'll put it this way - if I had to choose between putting my extra money toward either the True Copper caps or the Mundorf AG for C101/C201, I'd spend it on the Mundorfs and use the Pluses. TCs are top choice parts if your budget allows but the Pluses sound great to me.
I would have no reservations in recommending the Audyn Plus as the best "value solution" in that position. I'll put it this way - if I had to choose between putting my extra money toward either the True Copper caps or the Mundorf AG for C101/C201, I'd spend it on the Mundorfs and use the Pluses. TCs are top choice parts if your budget allows but the Pluses sound great to me.
I have tried those russian caps in B1 path..
I d say it is interesting change to the sound- a lot of air an some sort of particles (fun !)in the air, but reduced bass... I might foul my amp which is so so, but if I could get shaped up bass, more firm one and mid range not too far away I d be very happy.
Bob I ll get Audyn Plus and Mundorf as you suggested (eventually).
I d say it is interesting change to the sound- a lot of air an some sort of particles (fun !)in the air, but reduced bass... I might foul my amp which is so so, but if I could get shaped up bass, more firm one and mid range not too far away I d be very happy.
Bob I ll get Audyn Plus and Mundorf as you suggested (eventually).
Vox,
That's the spirit. Try lots of stuff and make it your own.
On the subject of C13 and mid-price caps, if you were thinking about trying the Audyn Plus, you might want to give the Audyn Reference a try at a little more money. OK, at 20 Euros it is a big step up from the 7 Euro Plus. At least one gent over on the "Orgy of Capacitors" thread on Head-Fi raves about them. The humble hi-fi guys thinks they are almost as good as the True Copper, but cost less. I would be giving them a go, but they aren't available in the US and the shipping kills the deal.
Humble Homemade Hifi
On the cheaper, newer end, I like the new Mundorf Evo caps (about 4 Euro), although I tried them on another project. Probably not as nice as the Audyn Plus, but I haven't tried those.
As a disclaimer, I am still stuck on my K75-10 Russian PIO+plastic and an Amtrans bypass for C13, so I am not actually using these suggestions. Lots of bass, luscious mid-range and just the right amount of detail and sparkle.
Jac
If you are referring to my earlier choice comment - the Mundorf AG caps enhance and "fill in" the entire amp. It's most noticeable in solidity, timing and apparent depth of mids and bass. They give the impression of more control and accuracy in mid and lower registers plus some additional headroom from the mids up. The input cap selection has a greater impact on "sparkle", stage, airiness and presence. I wouldn't consider either more important than the other. They work together.
I've two Mundorf MCAP 250V left-over from a passive crossover, I think that I will use them first. After burn-in time I will choose the cap for C13 trying to get more details, air, or more "round" and "body" sound.
But I like what Humble says about Obbligato, they are never harsh, analogue etc. etc.
But I like what Humble says about Obbligato, they are never harsh, analogue etc. etc.
I finally managed to retrieve the FE from my brother's;he was very reluctant to hand it back;so thought I would post a few pics.
The amp is built as an integrated;dual input version with 120VA transformers with 22V secondaries and a mixture of premium and standard parts.
Version two will be in a larger case with an Optivol[LDR] volume control and Mundorfs etc.
Can someone please remind me of the amps input impedance.
The amp is built as an integrated;dual input version with 120VA transformers with 22V secondaries and a mixture of premium and standard parts.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Version two will be in a larger case with an Optivol[LDR] volume control and Mundorfs etc.
Can someone please remind me of the amps input impedance.
I like printed manuals so went through build thread until Dario's how to step by step.
I put it down for now into word file, will convert later to pdf with reduced size of images.
I do remember some remarks about resistor placement and else, but will add info later.
Maybe some people would find i easier to have printed build.
Ivan
Click here for the file. Size is big (yet).
I put it down for now into word file, will convert later to pdf with reduced size of images.
I do remember some remarks about resistor placement and else, but will add info later.
Maybe some people would find i easier to have printed build.
Ivan
Click here for the file. Size is big (yet).
Obbligatos were part of the 'Ultimate My_Ref' GB and lots of builders liked them.
They're, in fact, pretty good, detailed but definitevely coloured, there are more neutral caps, IMHO.
I should think he liked them, right?
Nice work, Ivan
Ivan,
The K75-10 alone, I find somewhat colored with an emphasis on mid-range and lacking in detail and high frequency sparkle. With the right bypass, I find them very balanced.
My experience in C13 options is limited. Bob let me borrow his True Coppers and Mundorf ZNs. I have also tried a Sonicap, K71-4 styrene, and FT-3 teflon. To my taste and system, each of these had strong and weak points. A broad range of evaluators have picked the TC as the best of these choices and I respect that. For me, the TC sounded very good, but I actually preferred the K71-4 for my system. The K71's are a little cool sounding, but detailed and, in my system had good bass. Over all of these, I am currently preferring the K75-10 with Amtrans bypass. Jon L on the Orgy of Capacitors forum thread says that it is a fine line between an involving sound and a colored sound. I suspect that the K75s w/Amtrans flirts with this line and, in my system, lands on the side of involving. If you want very transparent and uncolored sound, then Dario is your man and the K75 is probably not your choice.
As for coherent, Dario and others have had issues with less than ideally coherent sound when using a bypass cap. Perhaps I am not sensitive to it or maybe I just got lucky with this combination. Whatever the reason, I find the K75/Amtrans very coherent.
I am developing a theory on this subject. My theory is that using a bypass cap of similar type as the main cap, just smaller in value, allows the benefit of bypassing while maintaining coherence. In this case, the PIO main cap and polyprop bypass caps are similar sounding caps. If I replace the Amtrans with a teflon FT-1 of the same size, there is more brightness and detail, but a lower level of coherence. Size also matters. A 3 nF compared to a 1 nF is very noticeable and 3 nF dominates and unbalances the sound.
As for Bob's request for a picture of my bypass on the FE, it is pretty embarrassing. Just alligator clips across the fastons that I am still using for C13. As you can see, the K75 is really too long for the board. It's about 5 mm longer than the K71 which is at the limit. That is OK for me because C13 will be off the board when I get it in the box. At that point, it will be even more difficult to mount the bypass cap.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=340961&stc=1&d=1365285255
Attachments
Very nice build. No wonder he doesn't want to give it up. I look forward to seeing the 2nd build.
Jac
No need to be embarrassed. You spawned an idea that will be helpful in investigating the bypass tests. With some of my scraps - thin Plexiglas (could be perfboard), thin copper plate (could be wire) fastons and sockets - i'll make a rig to sit on the board for testing.
Something like.....
Thanks.
Something like.....
Thanks.
Attachments
Since my previous review of various C13's in the MyRef Ultimate BOM thread, including Obbligato's, I have done a little more experimenting with caps. For me, the True Coppers are still the ultimate, but Audyn doesn't have any stock of useful sizes, and their response to inquiries about restocking is less than encouraging. I don't know if they've abandoned the design, which would be a shame. A true film and foil cap is definitely the best at this position, and the True Copper was by far the least expensive copper foil version. There are other manufacturers (Audio Note, Relcap, Jensen, V Cap, Duelund), but their copper foils are outrageously expensive. I am not as happy with aluminum or tin foil, even with Teflon dielectric instead of PP. I think the foil is the most important factor, but the true film and foil construction also makes a contribution you cannot achieve with metalized designs. For example, the Mundorf Zn is a very nice, inexpensive film and foil cap, but it lacks spaciousness, and, too a lesser degree, tonal accuracy.
A recent experiment with my active crossovers led to another discovery. I'm not sure if it will translate to C13, but it certainly opened my eyes to other possibilities and a single crucial factor. The mid/high pass section of the xover employs two 0.1uF caps. Since they are mounted on the PCB, I originally selected the "standard" Wima MKP's and thought I had the best. On a whim and because they were available on special, I tried a Gen I Sonicap, even though it took a bit of fiddling to get them onto the PCB in place of the Wima's. There was an instant, drastic improvement in air, high frequency smoothness, spatiality, etc. But the Sonicap does have a slight coloration, a bit of rounding of the highs and a somewhat overly reverberant midrange.
After reading of Jac's success with bypassing and the Russian polystyrene, I thought I'd give that a try. I bought a few very inexpensive 1nF polystyrene caps on eBay and used them to bypass the Sonicaps. These have solidified the midrange but kept all the wonderful spatial characteristics of the Sonicap, which is its strong point. The highs became more focused and extended while remaining perfectly smooth and open. I am amazed at how well this combination works, and how much better it is than the Wima MKP.
Off I went to eBay for more polystyrenes to try in a few other places. These were 33nF, and also very cheap. They were awful, with raggedy highs and a stridency that made music very unpleasant.
Here is my lesson from this experiment: the Wima MKP (not FKP) caps and the larger eBay polystyrenes have steel (!) leads. The smaller polystyrenes and most quality film caps have copper leads. I'm not sure if that is the determining factor, but it's the one thing the inferior sounding caps have in common.
After all this, I also made a small adjustment to xover frequency. Normally I use PRP or Vishay/Dale resistors, but I was on the cheap so I bought some KOA/Speer resistors. They sounded tinny and etched to the point that I couldn't listen without getting a headache. Frustrated, I checked the KOA's and they are magnetic. Not the leads, but the end caps. I replaced them with non-magnetic Vishay/Dales, and the integrity and tonality is better than ever.
Metal matters, and copper is the best. Steel seems horrible in every configuration and every sonic attribute.
If you can't afford a film and foil cap built with copper foil, you can possibly achieve satisfactory results with a metalized large value cap bypassed by a complimentary smaller value of higher quality construction. Complimentary is the hard part. I was not a proponent of bypassing at line level before this, but now I hear that it can work. I think the proportion of bypass to large cap is important. It might vary by combination, but I expect that anything less than 100:1 would not be effective, and anything more than 20:1 would be overwhelming or destructive of sonic coherence.
As an experiment, you could try a 1.0uF Sonicap Gen I (very inexpensive) with a decent quality 0.01-0.02uF film and foil cap such as a polystyrene. Make sure it has copper leads. Mundorf Zn would also be worthwhile trying, and not break the bank. I'm not sure anything could fix what I heard wrong with the Obbligato's, but they do have some good qualities that might make it worth trying. That new Hovland SuperCap (dumb name) isn't terribly expensive. I'd really like to know what foil it's made with, and how it sounds. Most metalized and cheaper film and foil caps use aluminum. The Audyn medium grade caps are also good candidates. Probably the only caps to not try bypassing are the multi-section ones such as many Mundorf and all Multicaps.
Peace,
Tom E
A recent experiment with my active crossovers led to another discovery. I'm not sure if it will translate to C13, but it certainly opened my eyes to other possibilities and a single crucial factor. The mid/high pass section of the xover employs two 0.1uF caps. Since they are mounted on the PCB, I originally selected the "standard" Wima MKP's and thought I had the best. On a whim and because they were available on special, I tried a Gen I Sonicap, even though it took a bit of fiddling to get them onto the PCB in place of the Wima's. There was an instant, drastic improvement in air, high frequency smoothness, spatiality, etc. But the Sonicap does have a slight coloration, a bit of rounding of the highs and a somewhat overly reverberant midrange.
After reading of Jac's success with bypassing and the Russian polystyrene, I thought I'd give that a try. I bought a few very inexpensive 1nF polystyrene caps on eBay and used them to bypass the Sonicaps. These have solidified the midrange but kept all the wonderful spatial characteristics of the Sonicap, which is its strong point. The highs became more focused and extended while remaining perfectly smooth and open. I am amazed at how well this combination works, and how much better it is than the Wima MKP.
Off I went to eBay for more polystyrenes to try in a few other places. These were 33nF, and also very cheap. They were awful, with raggedy highs and a stridency that made music very unpleasant.
Here is my lesson from this experiment: the Wima MKP (not FKP) caps and the larger eBay polystyrenes have steel (!) leads. The smaller polystyrenes and most quality film caps have copper leads. I'm not sure if that is the determining factor, but it's the one thing the inferior sounding caps have in common.
After all this, I also made a small adjustment to xover frequency. Normally I use PRP or Vishay/Dale resistors, but I was on the cheap so I bought some KOA/Speer resistors. They sounded tinny and etched to the point that I couldn't listen without getting a headache. Frustrated, I checked the KOA's and they are magnetic. Not the leads, but the end caps. I replaced them with non-magnetic Vishay/Dales, and the integrity and tonality is better than ever.
Metal matters, and copper is the best. Steel seems horrible in every configuration and every sonic attribute.
If you can't afford a film and foil cap built with copper foil, you can possibly achieve satisfactory results with a metalized large value cap bypassed by a complimentary smaller value of higher quality construction. Complimentary is the hard part. I was not a proponent of bypassing at line level before this, but now I hear that it can work. I think the proportion of bypass to large cap is important. It might vary by combination, but I expect that anything less than 100:1 would not be effective, and anything more than 20:1 would be overwhelming or destructive of sonic coherence.
As an experiment, you could try a 1.0uF Sonicap Gen I (very inexpensive) with a decent quality 0.01-0.02uF film and foil cap such as a polystyrene. Make sure it has copper leads. Mundorf Zn would also be worthwhile trying, and not break the bank. I'm not sure anything could fix what I heard wrong with the Obbligato's, but they do have some good qualities that might make it worth trying. That new Hovland SuperCap (dumb name) isn't terribly expensive. I'd really like to know what foil it's made with, and how it sounds. Most metalized and cheaper film and foil caps use aluminum. The Audyn medium grade caps are also good candidates. Probably the only caps to not try bypassing are the multi-section ones such as many Mundorf and all Multicaps.
Peace,
Tom E
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Thanks for the kind comments guys.
Yes my brother liked the performance of this little amp a lot and the speakers he uses [Audio Amateur Webb transmission lines] aren't the easiest to drive but the FE does so with ease.He will get the amp back when version two is completed which shouldn't be too long as the case is ready so just the pcb's to stuff and wire in place.
Yes my brother liked the performance of this little amp a lot and the speakers he uses [Audio Amateur Webb transmission lines] aren't the easiest to drive but the FE does so with ease.He will get the amp back when version two is completed which shouldn't be too long as the case is ready so just the pcb's to stuff and wire in place.
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