Thank you for that fascinating insight. Perhaps you're right, maybe one of us does need to grow up...
I have no problem with my opinion that my discrete preamps sound better than my opamp preamps - this is obviously a problem for you and I appreciate your concern, but please don't worry, it isn't for me. I fear my "local university", assuming they had nothing better to do, might have trouble proving that my opinions are factual to you, but perhaps they might be able to provide you some sort of character testimonial? Would that be acceptable to you? Or should we go for a lie detector test as well? Let me know and I'll make the arrangements. Or would this just be an example of "YDYB"?
Hey you know what, they might be able to give me some sort of therapy to stop me hearing differences in sound quality too. I'll see what I can arrange. If this doesn't work out I could try some cotton wool in my ears for you if you like. Oh and I'd better get my wife treated too, as she has told me I'm not allowed to remove my latest discrete preamp from the system because "it sounds much better than all the other ones"...
no it wasnt, I was aware of the potential irony when writing it initially, but left it in, I guess I hoped that someone wouldnt make a cheap joke about it, as they might see what I was getting at on the whole instead of pulling a snippet out to argue with or make funnies with, which seems the current trend here...
LOL ..see there you go, clearly I have a highly developed sense of humor....
and theres an obligatory emoticon
by itself the comment isnt funny, just smart ***. but at least it wasnt juvenile... just a little predictable
LOL ..see there you go, clearly I have a highly developed sense of humor....
and theres an obligatory emoticonby itself the comment isnt funny, just smart ***. but at least it wasnt juvenile... just a little predictable
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where are we, youtube?
would you like me to ghost edit your posts above? Do you think they are free of error? or (deliberate) you think sentences can start with 'or' ?
It is the realm of people who have no intelligent comeback to pick on grammar... I would expect that on some kids facebook page, or youtube comments, but not here.
it does fit with the LOL'ing and emoticons in place of actual humor though, so I shouldnt be surprised.
would you like me to ghost edit your posts above? Do you think they are free of error? or (deliberate) you think sentences can start with 'or' ?
It is the realm of people who have no intelligent comeback to pick on grammar... I would expect that on some kids facebook page, or youtube comments, but not here.
it does fit with the LOL'ing and emoticons in place of actual humor though, so I shouldnt be surprised.
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Close enough.
Anyway enough about discrete opamps, has anyone tried discrete mains cables?
i.e. with completely separate wires for live, neutral and ground going from the wall socket to your equipment. All the commercial cables I've looked at use exactly the same kind of wire for the forward and return paths. Surely that can't be optimal?
Also, with all the wires that close together, isn't the ground wire going to pick up interference from the other two? I thought the "ground"s in our equipment are supposed to be clean....
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No it can't be optimal, because as we all know the power gets used up by the device and hardly any current flows in the return wire, so the live wire needs to be much fatter... or so I was told years ago by a car audio expert who used 2 gauge wire for the +ve and thin hookup wire for the -ve cable of his kW car amp. He thought it was a clever cost saving strategy. He also wrapped his CD stacker in foam so it didn't skip when his 8 x 12" subwoofers were pumping. One of the true innovators...
Yes it does dismay me how close the 2 are becoming lately.
What do you suggest, perhaps some form of integrated connection? where Live, Neutral and Ground are all connected to live in parallel... but Live is pure silver, for that lively sound, neutral is carbon nanotubes and ground is 9N copper, they should then combine together to round out the sound?
heres me thinking current flowed from return... agreed there are some nut jobs out there.
What do you suggest, perhaps some form of integrated connection? where Live, Neutral and Ground are all connected to live in parallel... but Live is pure silver, for that lively sound, neutral is carbon nanotubes and ground is 9N copper, they should then combine together to round out the sound?
heres me thinking current flowed from return... agreed there are some nut jobs out there.
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Speaking as a self-proclaimed expert in this area, what you probably don't realise is that not only do cable manufacturers build discrete prototypes of their mains cables before going to production, the cables actually consist of individual copper strands - amazing but true. Since production tolerances are so tight (eg individual wire lengths perfectly matched which increases linearity by keeping the state of balance intact), there's no way a discrete implementation could perform better. Mass produced cables are just better - you need to accept this, it is a fact and does not need to be proven because the measured tolerances are tighter. Anyone that thinks discrete cables sound better will soon be proven wrong by having their opinion checked using triple-blind tests conducted by a university psychology dept. A good university will also be able to train these people to watch oscilloscope displays and read THD curves when playing their favourite music so they can enjoy it without having to rely on their hopelessly fallible ears. Eventually they will see the error of their ways and only use sine and square waves instead of having to waste money on subjectively-produced music.
Unlikely and not terribly relevant. But psychology departments generally have specialists in sensory science who are quite experienced in the sorts of things that engineers (and audio hobbyists) aren't, and can help you set up a true "ears only" test which will remove all variables other than the actual sound. It's difficult for many (maybe most?) people to accept that some differences which they are certain they perceive are actually illusory- but never underestimate the power of the human brain to fool itself! No-one is immune to this, not even the most hard-core rationalists.
Of course, some people are more interested in having fun than digging out truth, and that's OK. Personally, I trust my ears and am always willing to find out if it's my monkey brain that's lying to me.
The guy who's +25-year old business card I posted received his EE education in Karlsruhe, and started out developing logic stuff for Siemens.
His fancy preamp is a mix of discrete, opamps and if so desired, triode valve output stages (Schublade
).Those modules are basically symmetrical : Balanced input ECC83, underneith each valve a 72320 attenuator circuit, opamp backup for each phase, XLR out. (the RCA connector drawer differs by the addition of an OPA134 summing opamp)
Mr Gerhard also doesn't mind switching back and forth from discrete to integrated circuit, neither does ex-Romanian talented Mr Ovidiu Popa.
I could name half a dozen more at this side (also part personal acquaintances)
Maybe a Euro trash thing to pick sides, depending on the application ? Including tube amps.
The Alps HQPRO attenuator, as a big buck P&G, pretty much sucks for balanced gear. Khozmo on the other hand, mmm, yummy.
(I meant something else)
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I use opamps in my best designs. Usually not at the input of MC phono stages.
A discrete solution can be more quiet although i designed an opamp based symmetrical-balanced phono stage that manages 0.5nV/Hz. The trick i did was using 4 opamps in parallel. Yes, that noise reduction technique works with opamps too.
The same for Power amps where i prefer discrete. They can take more voltage and current. I designed a headphone amp and a power amp though with an opamp at the input.
Usually i prefer shunt feedback and biasing into class A.
Also new parts like the OPA1632 have great potential. The new Levinsons and Rowlands use them.
A discrete solution can be more quiet although i designed an opamp based symmetrical-balanced phono stage that manages 0.5nV/Hz. The trick i did was using 4 opamps in parallel. Yes, that noise reduction technique works with opamps too.
The same for Power amps where i prefer discrete. They can take more voltage and current. I designed a headphone amp and a power amp though with an opamp at the input.
Usually i prefer shunt feedback and biasing into class A.
Also new parts like the OPA1632 have great potential. The new Levinsons and Rowlands use them.
In general i regard any good part usable if you know what it does and how to use it.
Like a black box it has an input and an output. You just need a "key" to unlock it.
I can really not say a full tube circuit sounds better then anything else although i also have a system like that that is tube from MC input to speaker.
My tube system sounds a little bit sweeter then my better transistors stages and those sound sweeter then my best opamp stages but it is by a small margin.
You could also argue the other way around and say that the opamp solutions sound more clear.
I certainly have no problem to listen all day to my opamp based circuits.
Like a black box it has an input and an output. You just need a "key" to unlock it.
I can really not say a full tube circuit sounds better then anything else although i also have a system like that that is tube from MC input to speaker.
My tube system sounds a little bit sweeter then my better transistors stages and those sound sweeter then my best opamp stages but it is by a small margin.
You could also argue the other way around and say that the opamp solutions sound more clear.
I certainly have no problem to listen all day to my opamp based circuits.
Ah! No user, he, of the sledgehammer where a nutcracker will suffice.
Thank you John, much appreciate this. Perhaps I won't give up just yet!
I should be careful about John's endorsements, owdeo, recipients of these can consider themselves on a level with the Bybee Quantum Purifier.
John, given your propensity for seeing virtue everywhere and vice nowhere, I'd be interested to know your opinion of the Lessloss Blackbody.
Blackbody : Ambient field conditioner | Audiophile power conditioner | Audio power cables by LessLoss
Am I having fun yet? You bet I am.
A true blind test is virtually impossible at home. Although we are aware of SPL differences as low as 1 dB give or take, we can perceive much lower SPL discrepancies. In fact we can percieve many auditory discrepancies that we are not overtly aware of, even if our ears are "trained."
Of course audio is all about the auditory experience. Our ears are not only very nonlinear in regards to frequency vs amplitude and overall SPL, they are not even consistent. This might become apparent to you as you get older. My hearing is "messed up" but I can hear just fine. My ears do not adjust to amplitude changes nearly as fast as when I was younger. If I'm in a quiet environment, the slightest noise will sound very loud to me and probably startle me. And even worse is when I spend some time in a noisy environment - 30 minutes in a loud environment (industrial, cranking headphones or speakers) and I really can't hear much for at least an hour. People notice that I'm "deaf" and then call me a faker when I can hear the slightest engine noise that they can't even begin to hear. But such is the nature of human hearing, especially old abused hearing like mine.
Of course audio is all about the auditory experience. Our ears are not only very nonlinear in regards to frequency vs amplitude and overall SPL, they are not even consistent. This might become apparent to you as you get older. My hearing is "messed up" but I can hear just fine.
My ears do not adjust to amplitude changes nearly as fast as when I was younger. If I'm in a quiet environment, the slightest noise will sound very loud to me and probably startle me. And even worse is when I spend some time in a noisy environment - 30 minutes in a loud environment (industrial, cranking headphones or speakers) and I really can't hear much for at least an hour. People notice that I'm "deaf" and then call me a faker when I can hear the slightest engine noise that they can't even begin to hear. But such is the nature of human hearing, especially old abused hearing like mine.
counter culture, you are boring me and do not even present any opportunities for learning, except maybe patience, welcome to ignore. 
Jacco, As with several others here, despite me deliberately making a point of explaining the opposite, you seem to be laboring under the impression that i'm only pro opamps and anti discrete?, I dont know; I thought your English was quite good. I do object to ICs being put in another class of performance, even being another type of device is a bit silly, they are simply solid state at a different scale.
With careful layout and proper parts choice, for most applications (aside from what I have already mentioned) they are at best indistinguishable from each other audibly. In most cases discrete will lose objectively. I also believe that the only thing from holding ICs back in the areas that I and others have mentioned is investment and/or motivation by those that control the technology development at this point, not some inherent weakness of the format.
i'm completely agnostic, I build what I feel like and use what I feel suits the job best, regardless of race/creed, I am not a techno-xenophobe. Tubes are not something I have given over much time to though
I dont have any meaningful DC on the output of ANY of my DC coupled opamp builds, its also more stable than any of the discrete builds.
you will notice I have built Class A, Class AB, diecrete and IC based headphone amps, DAC IVs, poweramps. In fact my current system includes all of them, as I mixed and matched the 6 channels of poweramps + multiple channels of balanced dac for a digitally crossed system. I just kept on building, I cant even remember why I came here in the first place ha.
Digital Mac based crossover in Puremusic (some still under construction, the speakers themselves and casework mainly)
Subs are Class D
Mid woofers are high bias Class AB LME49830->Dual Die Alfet Laterals; powered by regulated SMPS. its Class A bias for all but the highest levels.
Tweeters are low Watt AB, LME49990+paralleled LME49600
ESS dacs run discrete and IC shunt regs and Class A common gate Mosfet Transconductance stage. (modified Pass D1, by opc) with TX220 Zfoil power resistors and Vcap CuTF. but I have OPA1632 IVs and SEN that I tried also.
headphone amps I run OPA1632+LME49600 in a transportable ES9018 dac/amp, but also have a DOA on the bench and a power jfet circlotron. I will be building up some of the SWOPA when I get the time.
then there is all the breadboard and otherwise experimental design
Jacco, As with several others here, despite me deliberately making a point of explaining the opposite, you seem to be laboring under the impression that i'm only pro opamps and anti discrete?, I dont know; I thought your English was quite good. I do object to ICs being put in another class of performance, even being another type of device is a bit silly, they are simply solid state at a different scale.
With careful layout and proper parts choice, for most applications (aside from what I have already mentioned) they are at best indistinguishable from each other audibly. In most cases discrete will lose objectively. I also believe that the only thing from holding ICs back in the areas that I and others have mentioned is investment and/or motivation by those that control the technology development at this point, not some inherent weakness of the format.
i'm completely agnostic, I build what I feel like and use what I feel suits the job best, regardless of race/creed, I am not a techno-xenophobe. Tubes are not something I have given over much time to though
I dont have any meaningful DC on the output of ANY of my DC coupled opamp builds, its also more stable than any of the discrete builds.
you will notice I have built Class A, Class AB, diecrete and IC based headphone amps, DAC IVs, poweramps. In fact my current system includes all of them, as I mixed and matched the 6 channels of poweramps + multiple channels of balanced dac for a digitally crossed system. I just kept on building, I cant even remember why I came here in the first place ha.
Digital Mac based crossover in Puremusic (some still under construction, the speakers themselves and casework mainly)
Subs are Class D
Mid woofers are high bias Class AB LME49830->Dual Die Alfet Laterals; powered by regulated SMPS. its Class A bias for all but the highest levels.
Tweeters are low Watt AB, LME49990+paralleled LME49600
ESS dacs run discrete and IC shunt regs and Class A common gate Mosfet Transconductance stage. (modified Pass D1, by opc) with TX220 Zfoil power resistors and Vcap CuTF. but I have OPA1632 IVs and SEN that I tried also.
headphone amps I run OPA1632+LME49600 in a transportable ES9018 dac/amp, but also have a DOA on the bench and a power jfet circlotron. I will be building up some of the SWOPA when I get the time.
then there is all the breadboard and otherwise experimental design
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