Good engineering is good engineering, but the your goal might be different, just like mine. Bose uses pretty OK drivers. I know 901's that have been put through decades of heavy use (bar with dance area, undersized speakers for the space, badly oversteered amps, long hours of pounding away). Never has a driver given up the gost in all these years.
Well the obvious logic to this is the burden of power is placed on nine drivers, not two or three.
After decades, I would imagine there is either some or a substantial amount of sound deterioration with the sound quality of the 901's. I am sure the foam surrounds would be pretty close to toast under the kind of abuse you describe.
After decades, I would imagine there is either some or a substantial amount of sound deterioration with the sound quality of the 901's. I am sure the foam surrounds would be pretty close to toast under the kind of abuse you describe.
Sorry but I was still talking about free field conditions outside, not a speaker placed in a room.
Not that I've actually tried tried such an experiment, but I don't see that it would make such a difference. If the speaker in free field conditions was clearly reproduced the main sound and reverberations of, say, a single person singing to a single mic, in a reasonably reverbrant room with a certain depth, height and defined side walls, do you believe there would be no sense of that space conveyed if listening in a non-enclosed space?
Frank
They might survive, but who wants to listen to them? In Brisbane '88 they had Expo: first pavilion was Canada - superb PA sound, still reference quality for me to this day. This show should be good, I thought ... silly me - the remainder of the pavalions had barely tolerable to execrable sound, courtesy of those Bose speakers, there was a plague of them elsewhere; I particularly remember the US pavilion being outstandingly bad ...
Frank
That's not the question. The question is "what creates a realistic sense of spaciousness". Is a single speaker under anechoic conditions enough or does it only work when additional cues are present?
Your question, I believe, is insufficiently defined: all you are specifying is the state of the actual output device, without taking into consideration other aspects of the whole chain. It would like asking whether a particular car could reach 150mph, based only on knowing the state of the suspension and wheels.
My answer, based on my experience, is Yes, if the prior chain is "perfect" or at some level well above the norm; and No, if the prior chain is a typical audio setup -- it is, a depends ...
Frank
I'm not asking if a car can reach 150mph, I'm asking about the properties of the wheels.
You're reporting your observations from a state when the whole system is already assembled (speaker in a room) which makes it impossible to determine what the contribution of each part really is.
Is it really such a absurd idea to explore the capabilities of stereo under anechoic conditions?
You're reporting your observations from a state when the whole system is already assembled (speaker in a room) which makes it impossible to determine what the contribution of each part really is.
Is it really such a absurd idea to explore the capabilities of stereo under anechoic conditions?
Sorry, asking whether anechoic stereo can create a spatial effect is querying a performance capability, because my POV it all depends on the quality of the signal at the point where it is emerges from the speaker driver. Poor rendering of low level detail, means poor rendering of the spatial characteristics of the recording. IF the listening room is highly reverberant then the perceived characteristics will be improved, but in essence it's using the room as a signal processing mechanism ...
Frank
Frank
Sorry, don't understand the point you're trying to make.
I'm simply asking if stereo in itself is capable of delivering spaciousness that is sensed as realistic.
Let's state the hypothesis that it can NOT because stereo isn't capable of creating the required wave field.
If we want to research that hypothesis it is necessary to look at stereo in isolation, without the room, i.e. under anechoic conditions. It would be pointless to look at a speaker (and its characteristics) placed in a room - even more pointless to look at a single speaker placed in a room.
I'm simply asking if stereo in itself is capable of delivering spaciousness that is sensed as realistic.
Let's state the hypothesis that it can NOT because stereo isn't capable of creating the required wave field.
If we want to research that hypothesis it is necessary to look at stereo in isolation, without the room, i.e. under anechoic conditions. It would be pointless to look at a speaker (and its characteristics) placed in a room - even more pointless to look at a single speaker placed in a room.
Gentleman, there is no need to quote the entire post just above yours.
Confusion reigns ... 
OK, to research THAT hypothesis, let's eliminate the room as the first step. You then are faced with the "problem" of deciding what quality of sound you are going to use to test that hypothesis. Or would you just assume that the quality is irrelevant to the experiment, that boombox quality is just as valid as the finest studio monitor output as the test material?
Frank
OK, to research THAT hypothesis, let's eliminate the room as the first step. You then are faced with the "problem" of deciding what quality of sound you are going to use to test that hypothesis. Or would you just assume that the quality is irrelevant to the experiment, that boombox quality is just as valid as the finest studio monitor output as the test material?
Frank
Markus,
I think what you are asking is can you record and encode all of the information that given two perfectly radiating sound sources combined together in an anechoic chamber can simulate the original source material plus the reverberant material necessary to create the illusion of depth and width? I have not studies sound to that depth of analysis of point source and perfect phase conjunction to answer that question, but on a theoretical basis it would seem possible but highly unlikely that could happen. I would think you would need a theoretically perfect speaker and electronic chain that had perfect phase and radiation patterns. I know of no speaker that can do that. Here is where someone like Gedlee can bring his knowledge of acoustics and radiation into the picture. I have always been under the impression that even a real voice in an anechoic chamber does not sound natural without some reflectivity to give some clues to localization we would expect indoors or out.
I think what you are asking is can you record and encode all of the information that given two perfectly radiating sound sources combined together in an anechoic chamber can simulate the original source material plus the reverberant material necessary to create the illusion of depth and width? I have not studies sound to that depth of analysis of point source and perfect phase conjunction to answer that question, but on a theoretical basis it would seem possible but highly unlikely that could happen. I would think you would need a theoretically perfect speaker and electronic chain that had perfect phase and radiation patterns. I know of no speaker that can do that. Here is where someone like Gedlee can bring his knowledge of acoustics and radiation into the picture. I have always been under the impression that even a real voice in an anechoic chamber does not sound natural without some reflectivity to give some clues to localization we would expect indoors or out.
Confusion reigns ...
OK, to research THAT hypothesis, let's eliminate the room as the first step. You then are faced with the "problem" of deciding what quality of sound you are going to use to test that hypothesis. Or would you just assume that the quality is irrelevant to the experiment, that boombox quality is just as valid as the finest studio monitor output as the test material?
Frank
Looks like we're finally talking about the same thing
When the room is removed then speaker and recording become the important variables that need to be tested. That's exactly what I'm interested in and as far as I know there has never ever been a conclusive study. Pretty amazing for a reproduction technique that is around for more than 80 years.
Yes but I would substitute "two perfectly radiating sound sources" with real speakers.
I doubt that our auditory system can have two different modes of hearing running at the same time in the same space.
When one walks into a reverberant space - that is any normal room, even one with extensive audiophile acoustic treatments - then our auditory system unconsciosuly switches into the "reverberant space" mode.
I doubt that switching a stereo sound reproducing system on can result in a change of this "reverberant space" mode of hearing into a "(semi)-anechoic space" mode.
Do You think it can?
I think it's possible . . . sitting (in that classic "audiophile" posture) in the "sweet spot", lights dimmed, listening intently to a properly encoded (for the purpose) recording. Sometimes, then, we manage to "overlook" the room and the "acoustic scene" or "image" snaps into place. Or at least we imagine it does . . .
But it's all rather pointless . . . an extended exercise in self delusion that does little if anything for the enjoyment of the music. We may pursue that delusion for the challenge, for fun, or for whatever other reasons inspire us to the pursuit . . . but it's a solitary and ultimately pointless exercise. Better, I think, to pursue good sound with a reasonably believable presentation over an extended listening area . . . and if you want the illusion of "pinpoint imaging" to get it by hanging a picture between the speakers. Your mind will then integrate the optical and acoustic images (as long as there's nothing in the sound that screams "loudspeaker"), and you'll hear what you see . . . regardless where you sit in the room (so others also get to enjoy the effect).
dewarth,
I agree that if you only have a single position that you have to sit with your head in the so called vise that is not a very great listening experience. Horizontal dispersion should be better than that so others can share in the enjoyment of the music. Yes the balance will change some by position but so would that be true in a live event. everyone is hearing a slightly different presentation depending on seating position. That is one reason that I always want to sit as close to the sound reinforcement console as possible, that is the best seat in the house most of the time.
I agree that if you only have a single position that you have to sit with your head in the so called vise that is not a very great listening experience. Horizontal dispersion should be better than that so others can share in the enjoyment of the music. Yes the balance will change some by position but so would that be true in a live event. everyone is hearing a slightly different presentation depending on seating position. That is one reason that I always want to sit as close to the sound reinforcement console as possible, that is the best seat in the house most of the time.