I get the impression from some of the posts that "breaking in" components only ever makes them sound better (whatever that might mean). Surely there's also a pretty good chance that the same process could also cause a component to make the overall sound worse. Why is this option never mentioned?
To take this argument further, if the breaking in process does make a difference (and I accept that it can - valves and speakers are an obvious example where there can be changes early in their life, electrolytic caps as well in some cases) then it must also be possible to break in a part more than is ideal for the optimum effect. How would one know when the correct degree of breaking in has been applied, and then how would one arrest the break in process? It all seems a bit hit and miss to me.
To take this argument further, if the breaking in process does make a difference (and I accept that it can - valves and speakers are an obvious example where there can be changes early in their life, electrolytic caps as well in some cases) then it must also be possible to break in a part more than is ideal for the optimum effect. How would one know when the correct degree of breaking in has been applied, and then how would one arrest the break in process? It all seems a bit hit and miss to me.
Who said that? I guess it is easier to criticise the most extreme version of whatever you think others think.Vincent77 said:
As I said, whatever 'break-in' does to a cap it will be undone and redone by the circuit itself. Feed a bit of noise first if it makes you feel better.
12E1: Oh dear, what an awkward fellow you are!
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Sometimes it happens, In fact I do prefer Silmic II when new than broke in...regarding bass performance.
The Black Gate changes a lot during burn-in, some day they sound hawful, the next wonderful until they stabilize.
It's not so... a component burns-in until it stabilize..
I don't have any direct support for it other than my empyrical experience.
I can't see much science from whom deny it too...
IMHO as far as breaking in caps, resistors, tubes, the patience of your neighbors, etc. Turn on power switch and crank it up! If you are going to break something in break it in hard so it will know who is in charge. As far as expensive caps go...just because it costs more doesn't necessarily mean it is better. I just finished building a 6l6+6sl7 SE amp and I bought every cap in it from the local Radio Shack for less than 20 bucks total. Sounds great! Good low end and refined mids and highs. Just my 2 cents worth.
Sorry about that, but I was joking, because someone had said "generic ones are just as good as expensive branded ones".
We know about resistor value variations.
We know about inductor parasitics.
We know about electrolytic capacitor parameter variations, particularly with regard to reforming the insulating layer
We know about semiconductor parameters and how using the wrong type will affect performance.
It's the lack of evidence about film capacitors that I am querying.
What does anyone have to offer?
Which parameter varies with use but not with time (on the shelf or in circuit but without power) and what effect will that have on performance
We know about inductor parasitics.
We know about electrolytic capacitor parameter variations, particularly with regard to reforming the insulating layer
We know about semiconductor parameters and how using the wrong type will affect performance.
It's the lack of evidence about film capacitors that I am querying.
What does anyone have to offer?
Which parameter varies with use but not with time (on the shelf or in circuit but without power) and what effect will that have on performance
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We have our extremists too! I would never claim that all caps are the same, as careful measurements show that they are not. However, I do believe that in most locations in most circuits the differences do not matter. The exception is where the cap significantly affects the frequency response, which should be the minority of caps, or where stray capacitance is the real effect.
I can only offer possible explanations...
Film caps are subject to electrostriction, it's not impossible that such micro movements stabilize the mechanical structure of the capacitor.
Are audio voltages high enough to have a measurable electrostriction?
Can such electrostriction modify the mechanical structure?
It should be measured, tested, etc. it can't be simply discarded by dogmas...
Another field of experimentation is the molecular structure of metals and how it changes with applied AC and/or DC.
Metallurgy uses heating, freezing, electricity to modify the molecular structure of metals with measurable physical differences (hardness, softness, resistance to wear, magnetization, etc.).
Why these physical effects shouldn't have some effect on electricity conducted by metals is a mistery known only to the most hard skeptics.
Just a couple of examples that should be scientifically explored, IMHO.
No change at all.
I simply don't trust to denials based on dogmas or poorly designed/biased experiments.
When I hear something on a regular basis in a consistent manner and a lot of people hear the same, as a supporter of the scientific method, I must consider the possibility that something real it's happening.
Such possibility must be scientifically explored, It can't be discarded using 'scientific' dogmas.
Unlikely, but bias voltage maybe. So use in the circuit will do the trick, if there is any effect to be had.ClaveFremen said:
Why is it that people who don't understand something often assume that nobody else understands it either? Let's increase/decrease the resistance of the metal used in a capacitor by a small amount, say 10% (and I don't think anyone claims break-in produces such a huge change). What effect would that have on the capacitor when used as, say, a coupling cap in a valve amp? Not a lot.
if a film cap is so loosely wound I don't see how its electrostriction perfromance can ever improve with use
electrostriction should be easily measured as distortion - Cap value has to be changing with applied V
in extreme cases of electrostriction sound can be heard coming from the cap body - some mylar caps in ancient 'scope PS made noise from crude early switching supply V multipliers
piezoeletric response is well know in hi-K ceramic C - I've heard them in pulse skipping low power regulators - modern sw frequencies are usually way too high otherwise
electrostriction should be easily measured as distortion - Cap value has to be changing with applied V
in extreme cases of electrostriction sound can be heard coming from the cap body - some mylar caps in ancient 'scope PS made noise from crude early switching supply V multipliers
piezoeletric response is well know in hi-K ceramic C - I've heard them in pulse skipping low power regulators - modern sw frequencies are usually way too high otherwise
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Who said that?
But if the molecular structure of metals (and their phisical beahviour) can be altered by heat/freezing/electrity how can we say such alteration has no effects on signal passing through that metal without a well designed experiment/measure?
Hard skeptics often deny metallargy is possibly an explation without producing a single proof (publication).
Effects are obviously much smaller...BTW if we consider attenuation the effect is really small, probably neglegible.
BUT
We should ask ourself why we're having such small resistance variation, where it came from? It's linear? It's frequency dependant? It's audible?
There are many questions that should be answered...
Wow. Who knew so many folks would weigh in on this subject. And electrostriction I don't think would be too much of an issue in an audio amp. HERE'S ELECTROSTRICTION
Can Crush 17KV / 15µF / 2,2KJ - YouTube
Can Crush 17KV / 15µF / 2,2KJ - YouTube
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