the verry same issue.
Audiophiles can't tell the difference between Monster Cable and coat hangers -- Engadget
and i bet the two of them differ in mesurable ways.
This IS a test.
One can do the same with reasonable amount of reservoir caps, and unreasonably high amount.
The result will be the same, actualy.
Audiophiles can't tell the difference between Monster Cable and coat hangers -- Engadget
and i bet the two of them differ in mesurable ways.
This IS a test.
One can do the same with reasonable amount of reservoir caps, and unreasonably high amount.
The result will be the same, actualy.
Sorry SY but it's not the case.
In my tests I follow a protocol trying to reduce/avoid bias and I repeat them several times.
Maybe my protocol it's not the best one or too much prone to errors but I don't express opinions based on 'casual' listening.
You actually know nothing about that test, the article say nothing about test conditions but you state that 'This IS a test.'...
i do not realy think You got the point behind it.
Just get a nice and quiet room, ability to switch between A and B (test subjects) without the listeners able to sense it. Then, test if they can tell the difference, let them tell You if A or B is better.
That IS a test.
That is what was done with the coat hanger.
And this is what should be done with extra reservoir capacitors too.
Start palying a music, then after a while stop the music and enable a nother bank of reservoir caps without the audience knowing if You really did it or not. Then start the music again, let them make notes if they hear the difference. Must do many instances, randomly enabling or disabling the additional capacitor banks. After a good number of tests compare how many of them where able to identify when the extra banks where enabled.
They should make a note for every instance, with a description of any difference they noticed.
The audience must not know what You change.
The first few instances can be real dummys, change nothing just pause the music and tell them You changed something. This helps to figure out how many of the people in the audience are guessing only.
You can test for cables, added capacitors/filtering, whatever.
If You honestly do this test, then it will tell if a modification has any use or not.
some further reading about facts..
The guy who can make any amp sound like ANY other:
Bob Carver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
a nother nice example:
Amplifier Sound Quality | Amplifiers | HomeTheaterFocus.com
a fishy one:
Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments
and just to be fair, there are differences that can be noted.
This link shows one of them, I show it just to be fair. I'm not against the audiophile stuff and preaching that coathangers and any lousy amp can take on the highest end gear, but there are many hyped things that simply are worthless and i em against those.
AVR blind cable test - AVReview Features
For the question of, does it sound better if it looks better, this is the answer:
Audio Musings by Sean Olive: The Dishonesty of Sighted Listening Tests
Let us just conclude that a red ferrari is just as fast as the green ferrari..
Modifications made by a DIY er and then evaulated by listening -may i ssay- are "slightly" influenced tests..
This is a nother read:
SHOOTOUT2007
Afterwards -throw rocks at me if You like- i would not be so sure that 20,000 ufd vs 1,000,000 ufd reservoir caps makes any difference, or turning a resistor 90 degree or whatever small change will actualy make anything "more open, get a better stage and add a stunning -whatever inserted here- to the music, bringing our beloved -whatever speaker- to live, adding a new dimension to all of it" or.. whatever b/s you can think out.
On the otherhand i would not call anyone a fool for being fooled inside the brain.
Just has to live with the fact that our senses may trick us.
that is reasonable, i think.
Just get a nice and quiet room, ability to switch between A and B (test subjects) without the listeners able to sense it. Then, test if they can tell the difference, let them tell You if A or B is better.
That IS a test.
That is what was done with the coat hanger.
And this is what should be done with extra reservoir capacitors too.
Start palying a music, then after a while stop the music and enable a nother bank of reservoir caps without the audience knowing if You really did it or not. Then start the music again, let them make notes if they hear the difference. Must do many instances, randomly enabling or disabling the additional capacitor banks. After a good number of tests compare how many of them where able to identify when the extra banks where enabled.
They should make a note for every instance, with a description of any difference they noticed.
The audience must not know what You change.
The first few instances can be real dummys, change nothing just pause the music and tell them You changed something. This helps to figure out how many of the people in the audience are guessing only.
You can test for cables, added capacitors/filtering, whatever.
If You honestly do this test, then it will tell if a modification has any use or not.
some further reading about facts..
The guy who can make any amp sound like ANY other:
Bob Carver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
a nother nice example:
Amplifier Sound Quality | Amplifiers | HomeTheaterFocus.com
a fishy one:
Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments
and just to be fair, there are differences that can be noted.
This link shows one of them, I show it just to be fair. I'm not against the audiophile stuff and preaching that coathangers and any lousy amp can take on the highest end gear, but there are many hyped things that simply are worthless and i em against those.
AVR blind cable test - AVReview Features
For the question of, does it sound better if it looks better, this is the answer:
Audio Musings by Sean Olive: The Dishonesty of Sighted Listening Tests
Let us just conclude that a red ferrari is just as fast as the green ferrari..
Modifications made by a DIY er and then evaulated by listening -may i ssay- are "slightly" influenced tests..
This is a nother read:
SHOOTOUT2007
Afterwards -throw rocks at me if You like- i would not be so sure that 20,000 ufd vs 1,000,000 ufd reservoir caps makes any difference, or turning a resistor 90 degree or whatever small change will actualy make anything "more open, get a better stage and add a stunning -whatever inserted here- to the music, bringing our beloved -whatever speaker- to live, adding a new dimension to all of it" or.. whatever b/s you can think out.
On the otherhand i would not call anyone a fool for being fooled inside the brain.
Just has to live with the fact that our senses may trick us.
that is reasonable, i think.
In the linked news from Engadget the only data about the test is:
it looks like a group of 12 self-professed "audiophiles" recently couldn't tell the difference between Monster 1000 speaker cables and plain old coat hangers. Yeah, coat hangers. The group was A-Bing different cables, and unbeknownst to them, the engineer running the test swapped out a set of cables for coat hangers with soldered-on speaker connections. Not a single one was then able to tell the difference between the Monster Cable and the hangers, and all agreed that the hangers sounded excellent.
What we can understand from it?
- it was a single blind test
- listeners didn't have control on swap
- listeners were not able to distinguish between the audio cable and coat hangers
- if the test have been ever made (not a single reference to time, place or whatever)
- the material the coat hangers were made of (if it was copper or brass differences would be small at best)
- the rest of the audio chain
- how long they listened to each option and what they listened to (a small excerpt or entire songs)
- how much time took the engineer to swap cables.
- etc.
Edit:
I've found the original reference, a post on audioholics forum.
Now we know some additional data:
- probably the test has been done
- they listened to an entire jazz trio song
- Louspeakers were Martin Logan SL-3
- An ABX switch box was used
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Conrad, again not as a point of dispute, in the past few days the primary intent of my posts centered around two ideas.
The first being the tone of the interplay between posters, I was actually so focused and put off by the accusatory and demeaning element in so many posts that, as in the responses from SY, that I didn't even notice he was a moderator till late yesterday afternoon. Not till then and when I found his article - which led to a better understanding of his background - did it occur to me that he wasn't some 22 year old brat flaming as many threads as possible. Everyone has the right to communicate with others as they see fit. The concern I expressed was one of mutual respect.
Another non-audio example is the relationship between an internationally acclaimed heart surgeon and the dude who picks up his trash. The doctor totally depends on the trash guy or the health department will close down his practice. The trash guy can survive and prosper even without the hospital stop on his route. In my mind, it's all about mutual respect, appreciation of value and decorum within the interplay.
My second point is simply the acknowledgement of the value of lower order use and experience of posters on the threads. If any of my little blue UFO friends does eventually expose the secrets of the lotto, after my lab, I might just pop for a Lincoln Navigator dragging a Chrysler Viper on a sway bar. I would hope neither manufacturer would require I have a degree in metallurgy as it relates to carburetor design, nor have written my thesis on the history of comparative studies of BTU production using ethanol. Though I am aware neither vehicle would exist without the work of some amazing minds and science well beyond my understanding, my simple desire to drive a nice car and my checkbook should be sufficient to make the purchase. The experiences gained with my new wheels might indeed prompt me to investigate the development behind the magic. But posting on my experience with my new rides should not be discounted just because I haven't topped 160 on the Autobahn and don’t have access to the Porsche proving grounds.
When the egos are left in the jewelry box with one’s other shinny possessions, this diyAudio forum has proven to be an indispensable and highly enjoyable source of knowledge. A great place to hang out. I simply encourage all to focus on the valid and a little less on the personal.
The first being the tone of the interplay between posters, I was actually so focused and put off by the accusatory and demeaning element in so many posts that, as in the responses from SY, that I didn't even notice he was a moderator till late yesterday afternoon. Not till then and when I found his article - which led to a better understanding of his background - did it occur to me that he wasn't some 22 year old brat flaming as many threads as possible. Everyone has the right to communicate with others as they see fit. The concern I expressed was one of mutual respect.
Another non-audio example is the relationship between an internationally acclaimed heart surgeon and the dude who picks up his trash. The doctor totally depends on the trash guy or the health department will close down his practice. The trash guy can survive and prosper even without the hospital stop on his route. In my mind, it's all about mutual respect, appreciation of value and decorum within the interplay.
My second point is simply the acknowledgement of the value of lower order use and experience of posters on the threads. If any of my little blue UFO friends does eventually expose the secrets of the lotto, after my lab, I might just pop for a Lincoln Navigator dragging a Chrysler Viper on a sway bar. I would hope neither manufacturer would require I have a degree in metallurgy as it relates to carburetor design, nor have written my thesis on the history of comparative studies of BTU production using ethanol. Though I am aware neither vehicle would exist without the work of some amazing minds and science well beyond my understanding, my simple desire to drive a nice car and my checkbook should be sufficient to make the purchase. The experiences gained with my new wheels might indeed prompt me to investigate the development behind the magic. But posting on my experience with my new rides should not be discounted just because I haven't topped 160 on the Autobahn and don’t have access to the Porsche proving grounds.
When the egos are left in the jewelry box with one’s other shinny possessions, this diyAudio forum has proven to be an indispensable and highly enjoyable source of knowledge. A great place to hang out. I simply encourage all to focus on the valid and a little less on the personal.
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once I met Van Den Hul at audiophiles party and it was fortunate to talk directly to the inventor of the VDH Cables. We asked him what makes it unique and he spoke that if you measure the conductors they measure the same but when u audition it you would find the difference and the reference line is so expensive for its construction process. Can anybody design a measurement device as good as human ear? he even said that you need to have top end amps and speakers to feel the difference....
I personally didnt check his cables A.B test but his super conductor engineering is interesting no matter its used for audiophile equipment. I think NASA buys some of his cables for their internal purpose.
I personally didnt check his cables A.B test but his super conductor engineering is interesting no matter its used for audiophile equipment. I think NASA buys some of his cables for their internal purpose.
Just today I had an old amplifier Yamaha A-17 Mosfet amplifier which has sanken mosfets. I have added 2 x 10000uf / 50v per rail to the existing Nichicon 6800uf/50v caps.
The results:
Bass wise it has become very tight and authoritative and its going pretty deep.
Mids wise not much difference but feel little bit smooth.
Treble wise no difference.
There are about 25 caps in the amp for which im thinking to upgrade to Elna Silmic 2. I loved this amp when i was in my college times guess I have to recap everything to use it or just build another Mosfet amp. But adding the PSU cap has changed the way it sounds in bass relatively much tighter...
The results:
Bass wise it has become very tight and authoritative and its going pretty deep.
Mids wise not much difference but feel little bit smooth.
Treble wise no difference.
There are about 25 caps in the amp for which im thinking to upgrade to Elna Silmic 2. I loved this amp when i was in my college times guess I have to recap everything to use it or just build another Mosfet amp. But adding the PSU cap has changed the way it sounds in bass relatively much tighter...
Now here's where measurement becomes useful. Put a voltage divider on the output, adjustable so you can get a signal the same level as the input. Put the input and output on a scope and add or subtract them, depending on whether the amp is inverting or not. Look at the difference while playing music into speakers. Change caps. Look again. Ideally you should see nothing, but that's unlikely. If changing caps changes the difference, the audible effect is likely real. If not, the well known biases are getting involved. BTW, I've been fooled by changes in the mid and high end that made me think the bass had changed.
just out of a question why were many behind blackgates? I would say that it might not a big difference but people like the sonic signatures of the caps. Highend resistors hardly would change...
i recently auditioned AudioNote Pre with Sonus Faber speakers they were just very natural nothing added or substracted but I liked the signature of the sound no matter what they have added or subtracted from the electronic components or whatever....
i recently auditioned AudioNote Pre with Sonus Faber speakers they were just very natural nothing added or substracted but I liked the signature of the sound no matter what they have added or subtracted from the electronic components or whatever....
Fashion. There is absolutely zero solid evidence that they did anything special in terms of audibility.
High End Audio - Electrolytic capacitors
High End Audio - Gallery, people one
may be some find the variation...
High End Audio - Gallery, people one
may be some find the variation...
Well I'm a born skeptic long regarding most 'Audio Weenie' claims as delusional.
When I tried Blackgates, admittedly on a whim, as I got them for free, there was a definite/distinct improvement.
I was shocked and amazed, prior to that I would have laughed.
Not so easily dismissed .. now
In Audio Land YMMV .. as Always
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