Compliments to you!!
They look great , and I know what I'm talking about , building a lot of couples of them.
I'm also very pleased with your musical present!! Recieved it last friday (wasn't home at that time).
If everybody ,who is building them , sends their best sounding CD , on the "concerti 166 clone" , as wel ; I will make a selection/compilation of the best sounding songs for every contester!!
They look great , and I know what I'm talking about , building a lot of couples of them.
I'm also very pleased with your musical present!! Recieved it last friday (wasn't home at that time).
If everybody ,who is building them , sends their best sounding CD , on the "concerti 166 clone" , as wel ; I will make a selection/compilation of the best sounding songs for every contester!!
They play just fabulous. A bit different than regular speakers. There is feeling of listenig to the real instruments every time - they don't just reproduce music, but play. Sounds just vibrate very vividly. Nonetheless my tweeters FT17H are quite new so I'm wating for them to break in. I've experimented with different ways of connecting speakers to the amplifier. Now I'm listenig with serial crossover like this:
With that there is more space and air in the music. I'll publish final set up.
Once again thank you Leonidas !!!
With that there is more space and air in the music. I'll publish final set up.
Once again thank you Leonidas !!!
I'm using First Watt F3 with these speakers and that's the best set up. They are almost equally good with F5 but tiny bit less "sweet" and not so charming. Suprisingly enough even Gainclone plays pretty good with them. Nonetheless F3 is the best although in certain orchestral works string section are pushed a little bit too backward. Probably it's the question of the whole chain of equipment i.e. digital source+Arcam rDAC+F3+loudspeakers.
I can't find anything like that using analog source -turn table + Pearl II phono stage.
One way or another these are fabulous speakers for every genre of music. There is such a notion that BLH speakers are not suitlable for rock music. I can't agree in case of "Concerti clone", they are very good in it also. I enjoy my "YES" band music very much for instance. Even spoiled by loudness war haevy metal pieces sound little "rounded" and there is enough bass.
I can't find anything like that using analog source -turn table + Pearl II phono stage.
One way or another these are fabulous speakers for every genre of music. There is such a notion that BLH speakers are not suitlable for rock music. I can't agree in case of "Concerti clone", they are very good in it also. I enjoy my "YES" band music very much for instance. Even spoiled by loudness war haevy metal pieces sound little "rounded" and there is enough bass.
Browsing in the net I found similar commercial designs to the "Concerti":
Spicom from Greece:
Spicom :: TYPE 40
Fletcher-Haynes from USA:
Heirloom Speakers
Spicom from Greece:
Spicom :: TYPE 40
Fletcher-Haynes from USA:
Heirloom Speakers
Some Comments on the Concerti Clone
Thanks to Leon's ingenuity. The speakers sounds great! Especially in the middles and highs. The sound field is quite wide and instrument position is well defined. I think the sound quality is pretty comparable to commercial products priced at a few thousand USD's range. The drivers are true master pieces! When playing Piano works, I feel like that I have Maurizio Pollini playing on a Stainway in my living room. I only hear the same effect once when Quad909 driving a pair of ESL.
I have used two tweeter, which laterly proved to be unnecessary. The Foxtex's high freq extends to 20K+. I can hear the diference between with/without the tweeter added, but I do not appreciate the sound with the tweeter.
That said, I believe there is pretty room for improve this design. Firstly, it yet has to extend the bass. So far, I hear no instruments sounding below 50-60Hz. For example, when I play the Kenny G with Babyface "Everytime I Close My Eyes", there is a lack of the power in the drum beat, neither the depth. So does it plays the Eagles "Hotel California". Also, you can hear resonance at some frequencies. This makes some of the notes during fast sections sound more vague, while in fact they should be articulate.
Jazz
Thanks to Leon's ingenuity. The speakers sounds great! Especially in the middles and highs. The sound field is quite wide and instrument position is well defined. I think the sound quality is pretty comparable to commercial products priced at a few thousand USD's range. The drivers are true master pieces! When playing Piano works, I feel like that I have Maurizio Pollini playing on a Stainway in my living room. I only hear the same effect once when Quad909 driving a pair of ESL.
I have used two tweeter, which laterly proved to be unnecessary. The Foxtex's high freq extends to 20K+. I can hear the diference between with/without the tweeter added, but I do not appreciate the sound with the tweeter.
That said, I believe there is pretty room for improve this design. Firstly, it yet has to extend the bass. So far, I hear no instruments sounding below 50-60Hz. For example, when I play the Kenny G with Babyface "Everytime I Close My Eyes", there is a lack of the power in the drum beat, neither the depth. So does it plays the Eagles "Hotel California". Also, you can hear resonance at some frequencies. This makes some of the notes during fast sections sound more vague, while in fact they should be articulate.
Jazz
by the way, for your reference, I am using these two amps
Modified NAP140
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/206984-modified-naim-nap140-schematic.html
JC2012Doomday
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soli...ay-high-efficiency-version-jlh1969-class.html
Modified NAP140
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/206984-modified-naim-nap140-schematic.html
JC2012Doomday
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soli...ay-high-efficiency-version-jlh1969-class.html
some measurements after all!!
Before it starts a lot of discussions ; these measurements are 1/6 smoothing IN ROOM measurements at Xanders home to find the optimal speaker and listening position!!
So they are NOT absolute but relative measurements.
The ATB system has some algorithm to include bass in-room measurements ; and you can leave the system on and move your speakers seeing what's happening on your screen.
And take some screenshots which you are going to see.
First pic : 2x imp. one time tweeter reversed. and 50cm spl centre of fe166.
Before it starts a lot of discussions ; these measurements are 1/6 smoothing IN ROOM measurements at Xanders home to find the optimal speaker and listening position!!
So they are NOT absolute but relative measurements.
The ATB system has some algorithm to include bass in-room measurements ; and you can leave the system on and move your speakers seeing what's happening on your screen.
And take some screenshots which you are going to see.
First pic : 2x imp. one time tweeter reversed. and 50cm spl centre of fe166.
Attachments
In my previous post you see not much happening below 70 Hz.
This is because of the algorithm in the prog.
The concerti is to fast for the prog.
The bass needs some time to build up in the room.
So measure at listening posistion ; both speakers.
Notice the big diffrences dependent on different reflections !!
A proper 45Hz , in room is also possible!!
This is because of the algorithm in the prog.
The concerti is to fast for the prog.
The bass needs some time to build up in the room.
So measure at listening posistion ; both speakers.
Notice the big diffrences dependent on different reflections !!
A proper 45Hz , in room is also possible!!
Attachments
And for now the last picture.
A lot of curves with a lot of listening in between.
Xander's choice : light blue and green for the second speaker.
Almost 40Hz "in-room" ; not bad at all.
Holographic / ESL - like sound with FAST bass.
Xander said to me that after optimising everything it sounded at least 100% better than before.
They now have a price/performance ratio of 12 (Xander's words ; not mine!!......but......they are SOOOOOO GOOD!!)
So for everybody building :
Give them break-in time.
Use a tweeter !! ( most resonances people think to hear are conus anomalies ; not design failures!!)
Experiment with romm placement and sit about 3/4 metres away from the speakers.
Good luck to everybody and enjoy!!
A lot of curves with a lot of listening in between.
Xander's choice : light blue and green for the second speaker.
Almost 40Hz "in-room" ; not bad at all.
Holographic / ESL - like sound with FAST bass.
Xander said to me that after optimising everything it sounded at least 100% better than before.
They now have a price/performance ratio of 12 (Xander's words ; not mine!!......but......they are SOOOOOO GOOD!!)
So for everybody building :
Give them break-in time.
Use a tweeter !! ( most resonances people think to hear are conus anomalies ; not design failures!!)
Experiment with romm placement and sit about 3/4 metres away from the speakers.
Good luck to everybody and enjoy!!
Attachments
I am curious: what optimisation that Xander has done on the speakers? The three SPL vs. Freq graph differs a lot. I hope that I can have the speakers of the third graph.
Thanks Leon for bring us such a good design. I believe the 12x p/p is not exagerating.
The left and the right print differs significantly. Was this due to the environment, eg. room etc. ? And I am wondering why all the measured SPL below 90db? I remember there is another measurement done by Bob Brines, which was done in a big garage and did show that the SPL vs. Freq was quite consistent with the driver's published spec, except some elevated bass.
Final crossover?
Hey Dzius,
How is this crossover doing? I'm interested in trying to build this project too!
Has anyone flush mounted these drivers? I like the way that looks.
Hey Dzius,
How is this crossover doing? I'm interested in trying to build this project too!
Has anyone flush mounted these drivers? I like the way that looks.
Crossover is doing very well I recomend it. I tried many other setups but this one plus First Watt F3 is probably the best. Baffle step correction is a matter of room acoustic and personal taste of course. I'm planing to test direct connection FT17 to the amp output with 1.68uF cap and 3ohm resistor in series too (just for research) . Nonetheless these speakers are just fabulous judging it by ears. They play live music not just reproduce it. You can't figure it out of measurments or specs. I invited friends who are musicians the other day to confront my stuff with their instrument sound memory. After playing many differente pieces of music their final opinion was very good.
Target specs?
Do you have the line length and the pipe tuning? the target anyway?
also, your speaker pics show one that looks like one I've seen at humblehomemadehifi.com.
Do you have the line length and the pipe tuning? the target anyway?
also, your speaker pics show one that looks like one I've seen at humblehomemadehifi.com.
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