Well, some of them wind their own in-house, while others farm them out. Perhaps to places on this list.
Hi!
You'd probably be surprised about the actual parts cost in a high priced amp which is sold through the regular channels in stores. Often you will find much higher parts quality in the typical DIY project.
If an amp costs $10.000 in a store, the actual cost of the parts inside is typically $500 - $1000. Quite often the biggest part of the material cost is in the chassis. Now you can estimate how much there might be left for the power transformer.
Best regards
Thomas
You'd probably be surprised about the actual parts cost in a high priced amp which is sold through the regular channels in stores. Often you will find much higher parts quality in the typical DIY project.
If an amp costs $10.000 in a store, the actual cost of the parts inside is typically $500 - $1000. Quite often the biggest part of the material cost is in the chassis. Now you can estimate how much there might be left for the power transformer.
Best regards
Thomas
From the technical point of view there are no super high end audio equipment, except those designed for recording studios. Super high end is a pure marketing terms used to skyrocket someone's profit. If you look under the hood of $10,000 or even $250,000 tube amplifiers in most cases you will see ordinary devices, sometimes beautifully hand crafted.
You can go for example with Lundahl, Tamura or Tango, and you won't be wrong.
There is a plenty of other respectable transformer design/manufacturing companies which DIYAudio members are happy with.
You can go for example with Lundahl, Tamura or Tango, and you won't be wrong.
There is a plenty of other respectable transformer design/manufacturing companies which DIYAudio members are happy with.
Well, there are some companies that build with silver wire for the windings.
Then there are somewhat expensive and exotic core materials (depending on the application).
You can argue one way and the other as to if this matters or not.
The only way that this sort of thing should be of concern to a DIYer, imo, is if you are designing for a very specific goal. That implies that you are more or less able to figure out the inner workings of a transformer design and engineering. In which case the general question you are asking is answered before you start.
Other than that, you want the transformer with the best spec for the specific tube and tube set up and parameters that you have, with the overall design's aims in mind.
Having said that, it seems that two seemingly virtually identical transformers like from Lundahl, Tamura and Tango, or UTC, etc., will all have their own "personality" when you listen to them.
I think that building a tube amp is both an art and a balancing act.
I doubt if any body can do a design, build it and know before they listen what it is going to sound like to their ears.
_-_-bear
PS. I will have to disagree with the idea that there is no super high end equipment except for recording studios... and they rarely use tube amps these days.
Then there are somewhat expensive and exotic core materials (depending on the application).
You can argue one way and the other as to if this matters or not.
The only way that this sort of thing should be of concern to a DIYer, imo, is if you are designing for a very specific goal. That implies that you are more or less able to figure out the inner workings of a transformer design and engineering. In which case the general question you are asking is answered before you start.
Other than that, you want the transformer with the best spec for the specific tube and tube set up and parameters that you have, with the overall design's aims in mind.
Having said that, it seems that two seemingly virtually identical transformers like from Lundahl, Tamura and Tango, or UTC, etc., will all have their own "personality" when you listen to them.
I think that building a tube amp is both an art and a balancing act.
I doubt if any body can do a design, build it and know before they listen what it is going to sound like to their ears.
_-_-bear
PS. I will have to disagree with the idea that there is no super high end equipment except for recording studios... and they rarely use tube amps these days.
OK, what exactly "super high end" is about? In terms of engineering, not marketing terms?
10 kWt tube amp (by the size of large refrigerator), built just for fun by Russian DIYer?
There are no any new vacuum tubes (suitable for audio) designed since 196x. And thus, all vacuum tube amplifiers is a variation of schematics using those ancient, half-century devices, or mixture of tubes and transistors, which is barely something really new or complex, compared for example to IBM Power7 CPU with 1.2 billion transistors.
Thank you all very much. This has helped put me in the know on this issue. There is another side of the question....this question probably makes no sense practically, but for pedagogical purposes...
If I take a standard circuit design (say from the Mullard book), and I build two amps from it that are otherwise identical except I build one with Lundahl, Tamura or Tango transformers meeting the design's specs, and one with low-cost transformers, will the former have better transparency, open highs, etc.?
Thanks.
If I take a standard circuit design (say from the Mullard book), and I build two amps from it that are otherwise identical except I build one with Lundahl, Tamura or Tango transformers meeting the design's specs, and one with low-cost transformers, will the former have better transparency, open highs, etc.?
Thanks.
Maybe.
It's also possible that the amp with the better transformer will be unstable and oscillate, if the amp uses global NFB. Often the compensation in the feedback network is tweaked for the particular transformer used, so you may need to modify it to make it happy.
If there is no gNFB, then IME, an amp with a more expensive transformer usually measures better than the cheap one. But not always. It depends both on the amplifier design and the individual transformer. I've had some quite expensive transformers that performed poorly, and some cheapies that worked very well.
That doesn't help much, does it?
Pete
Wow!
PMillet!! ATHOUSAND BILLION THANKS for your website! Nice to sort of meet you here.
LinksGuru, for the most part there are no new circuits at all.
But there are some very interesting variations that definitely were not built in earlier times, and refinements of older circuits. Certainly in solid state there are some new ideas.
river251, sure they will sound different. But no way to know which one sounds the way you would prefer, want or like... and to make matters worse, a lot of the final sound depends on everything else other than the output transformer. Meaning, you could have the "better" of the transformers, but it may not sound "best" in your circuit (for a variety of reasons).
No easy answers.
_-_-bear
PMillet!! ATHOUSAND BILLION THANKS for your website! Nice to sort of meet you here.
LinksGuru, for the most part there are no new circuits at all.
But there are some very interesting variations that definitely were not built in earlier times, and refinements of older circuits. Certainly in solid state there are some new ideas.
river251, sure they will sound different. But no way to know which one sounds the way you would prefer, want or like... and to make matters worse, a lot of the final sound depends on everything else other than the output transformer. Meaning, you could have the "better" of the transformers, but it may not sound "best" in your circuit (for a variety of reasons).
No easy answers.
_-_-bear
Sorta. It tells me that there are factors I need to consider when picking the tranformer/circuit combo. Could I explain them? Nope. =]
build whatcha got!
See what it does, dork with it, tweak it... build another... it's DIY!!
It's a fun hobby, but my motivation is to build an amp that will be no less that all I desire, but for much less money, and be done with it...back to listening and playing. If I had time on my hands, I might feel differently, but I don't. So if it's that hit and miss, I should stay away. I don't think it is from what I've read....you CAN pick a good, existing design, great parts, and have a chance to have a killer sounding amp. Otherwise I'd just get an MV-55 and mod the heck out of it, or a DNA .5, and a great preamp, and be done.
Output transformers are best designed by Transformer designers, not engineers. It is very much an area that a knowledgable engineer would enter "very" reluctantly, as it is more nearly akin to a Black Art than science or engineering.
Power Transformers? No problem at all for any decent Double Eagle.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Actually on second reading, this is a bit discouraging.
It seems you are saying, absent gNFB, there is an outcome-determining synergy between designs and particular transformers. What I can not determine is whether you intend that the outcome of this synergy is predicable.
It also seems to follow from your first statement, that given NFB, and appropriate adjustments to the transformer successfully applied, the better transformer will yield the better sound.
Thank you much.
Jim
Just my thoughts,
It stands to reason that any High quality component is going to effect the amount of smear and the "sound" of the equipment. This will effect the interaction of the components and "synergy" of the system..An improvement in O/P Tx will be less forgiving and let more "detail" through that includes distortion from components or bad source..and so could sound worse..This is the case when many people use high end "Caps" etc that "don't sound as good" as standard caps..its because the mess is filtered out..
And lets not get into phase shift..
Regards
M. Gregg
It stands to reason that any High quality component is going to effect the amount of smear and the "sound" of the equipment. This will effect the interaction of the components and "synergy" of the system..An improvement in O/P Tx will be less forgiving and let more "detail" through that includes distortion from components or bad source..and so could sound worse..This is the case when many people use high end "Caps" etc that "don't sound as good" as standard caps..its because the mess is filtered out..
And lets not get into phase shift..
Regards
M. Gregg
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.