Off topic a bit but something I'd like to know. Has anybody in London got a finished amplifier they could demonstrate? My brother is a doctor in Fulham and has Apogee Caliper Signature speakers. Full range electrostatics with low impedance like about 4 ohms. He runs a big Krell and also a pair of Nagra 845 tube monobloks. He's definitely in the market if he likes it - I'd probably build it for him, or he might just buy a finished amp.
So - anybody in London area who could demonstrate?
Best, Andy
So - anybody in London area who could demonstrate?
Best, Andy
Then the question arises: why are better woofers often able to improve perceived mid and high frequency reproduction too? (of course leaving out mid/bass transition which otherwise has a lot to say as a woofer in fact will reproduce some of the midrange content).
More clearly it could be stated that if human ear cannot detect the difference between 1 and 30% THD below 200Hz, then we should not be able to hear differences between different woofers at all, if they are just EQ´ed to similar response. This would contradict my experiences and probably that of most other speaker builders.
Another type of reasoning that I might suggest is to investigate what the claim you refer to actually says, and what kind of delimitation it has been constructed upon. Hence what and what not it actually can be transferred to as being a valid fact to build further reasoning upon. My humble guess is that the way the test has been conducted (setup) is very (to vastly understate it) different to the context (setup) in which it is tried to be used as a valid argument here.
Another thing I personally find interesting about THD and audibility, is that the human ear (if properly trained) seemingly can hear the difference between very small distortion artifacts caused by an amplifier (like ncore vs UCD) when the later speaker and room causes magnitudes higher distortion (THD). Speakers are generally in the 1% and the room contribution much much more. We are talking at least a 1000 fold THD that still does not suffice to hide what the amp is causing (at least the difference of doing a little (THD > 0,1% for UCD) and very little (THD >> 0,01% ncore)).
My guess is that the human ear can be very well adapted (also if trained, of course) to distinguish distortion artifacts from each other. Like tasting or smelling subtle flavors behind much stronger spices like chili and garlic. At least when regarding taste and smell, scientific and instrumental dogmatism has not yet induced a blind rational madness as the nose and tongue of those who are trained cannot be ruled away for objective standardization. Of course sound and smell are not in the same domain as one is reproduction (in the way we are dealing with it) and the other is a primary chemical source (yet still possibly reproduced, though seldom in a truly convincing way)
That said it really IS interesting that pure active bass applications seem to yield audible benefits from using nocre over UCD´s.
At least Bruno should be thrilled -until someone starts craving a 10kW ncore for welding woofers in home-MAX-theater applications
cheers,
I'm a professional double bass player (kontrabass), and I'm very wary about what people expect from bass sounds. I read a lot about bass "slam". A string bass has no slam. It isn't an acoustic phenomenon. It's an amplified phenomenon. So with an electric bass and an amp you can have as much "slam" as you want - it's up to your personal taste. If you want to shake the walls - fine!
What I listen for is tone and definition - are we hearing a good acoustic note or a thud? Bass players can tell gut strings from nylon coated strings from metal strings, even at these low frequencies, but you're quite right to say that much of the definition and timbre in this case may come from higher frequencies.
But my point remains that the kind of bass that people judge to be "good" can vary hugely from one listener to another. One example - many people like subwoofers. I can't stand them and I haven't heard a single one that sounds better on than off. I'd prefer less bass but musical bass. That's where I'm coming from!!
As for "better woofers" - a 15" speaker is just about perfect for string bass, and what most of us use on stage. Though I have to say I've heard nice bass from smaller units, and increasingly bass players are using combinations of smaller units.
Andy
What I listen for is tone and definition - are we hearing a good acoustic note or a thud? Bass players can tell gut strings from nylon coated strings from metal strings, even at these low frequencies, but you're quite right to say that much of the definition and timbre in this case may come from higher frequencies.
But my point remains that the kind of bass that people judge to be "good" can vary hugely from one listener to another. One example - many people like subwoofers. I can't stand them and I haven't heard a single one that sounds better on than off. I'd prefer less bass but musical bass. That's where I'm coming from!!
As for "better woofers" - a 15" speaker is just about perfect for string bass, and what most of us use on stage. Though I have to say I've heard nice bass from smaller units, and increasingly bass players are using combinations of smaller units.
Andy
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Relative to Juhleren interesting points above:
The interaction between two speakers, a listener, and the domestic room's boundaries result in "X" perceived sound quality in the bass range. I think listeners often mistakenly associate "X" as an inherent quality whose result is 90% to 100% sourced by the speaker rather than the sum total of all the above ingredients.
Take two different woofers in enclosures, both well tuned in appropriate reflex enclosures, testing closely in THD and response. The port of one enclosure is tuned to the same frequency as one of the room's worst modal effects. The port of the other enclosure is tuned far from any modal effect. Which one will listeners prefer?
The interaction between two speakers, a listener, and the domestic room's boundaries result in "X" perceived sound quality in the bass range. I think listeners often mistakenly associate "X" as an inherent quality whose result is 90% to 100% sourced by the speaker rather than the sum total of all the above ingredients.
Take two different woofers in enclosures, both well tuned in appropriate reflex enclosures, testing closely in THD and response. The port of one enclosure is tuned to the same frequency as one of the room's worst modal effects. The port of the other enclosure is tuned far from any modal effect. Which one will listeners prefer?
May be as simple as the level of 2nd (3rd, 4th etc) harmonic in the thd from the bass driver is at a level where it becomes a significant part of the midrange content (and with phase effects possibly causing nulls in the upper frequencies rather than additive effects (okay, I know a null is a negative addition))
Completely remove a lower quality (higher distortion) bass driver from the system and you may get a better quality midrange. Possibly would also explain why many speakers lose control as amplitude increases - distortion is non-linear and dependent on cone excursion.
After many decades I'm still generally of the opinion that 'infinite baffle' speakers provide a better and more controlled bass than port loaded speakers where the out of phase /delayed signal from the port takes time to combine with the initial signal from the bass driver
Andy,
I too prefer non-sub´ed systems. My experience is the same as yours. More is not always better to my ears, but people differ and some even develop along the way ;-)
If your condensed statement is that implementation is much more important than the quality of the single part(s), I totally agree. This is where much DIY goes totally off track. A component is not about the sum of the parts (and their respective prices) but how they are made to perform. Good product design offers good performance from simple but well put together parts. That´s called innovation
Then using premium part in dedicated places may yield performance gains that justifies the higher prices for said components. Not the other way around; good parts seldom (if ever) cause a bad design to make sense. Good point CrisPa. Yes distortion transcendes the intended band of use. Also, this could be an argument for some of the advantages of active drive (sans passive filters), as the damping of the amp then is able to damp a driver motor throughout the entire audible band and not just where the filter allows it to. Distortion caused by say a 100 Hz fundamental (below cutoff hence little filter interaction on amplifier damping) that cause multiple distortion artifacts at higher frequencies (above cutoff hence much more filter interaction reducing the amplifiers damping).
That said, it would really surprise me if the experienced differences between woofer qualities are "only" related to mid and treble artifacts which they are believed to cause and not also to their fundamental LF performance. After all we are talking about some 80% of the power in the music signal that typically goes to the sub 200 Hz region. Our ears don´t really need to be that sensitive in that region as they are feed accordingly to their relative sensitivity
Also the dynamic "stress" of the major impulses in this region shouldn´t be that unlikely to provoke amps and woofers to show differences in their performance. cheers,
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I received my enclosure from HiFi2000 (ModuShop) and the quality is first rate.
I previously wired my UCD400 HG with H x R monoblocks for unbalanced operation only (pseudo balanced according to instructions). It sounds terrific.
I want to try the benefits of balanced wiring for the NCores, but I want to be able to compare both amps apples to apples. I understand how to wire the NCores for balanced, but how do I ALSO wire the NCores for unbalanced (pseudo balanced)?
Do I simply wire the RCAs off of the XLR female chassis connections using the standard pseudo balanced instructions?
Sorry for the novice questions, but as I said in an earlier post, I am not an engineer or anything close so don't yell at me for being stupid. Believe me, I will readily admit that I don't understand most of this stuff, but I can promise you that all of you would be just as lost in what I do !!!!
I previously wired my UCD400 HG with H x R monoblocks for unbalanced operation only (pseudo balanced according to instructions). It sounds terrific.
I want to try the benefits of balanced wiring for the NCores, but I want to be able to compare both amps apples to apples. I understand how to wire the NCores for balanced, but how do I ALSO wire the NCores for unbalanced (pseudo balanced)?
Do I simply wire the RCAs off of the XLR female chassis connections using the standard pseudo balanced instructions?
Sorry for the novice questions, but as I said in an earlier post, I am not an engineer or anything close so don't yell at me for being stupid.
Believe me, I will readily admit that I don't understand most of this stuff, but I can promise you that all of you would be just as lost in what I do !!!! Clearly in the case of active speakers the question is about low-to-mid frequency distortion products arising from low-frequency signals. The thing that mainly amazes me is that it implies that at least the lower than -70dB distortion products of UcD are still audible at low frequencies (where the ear is much less sensitive and linear) through a woofer that is nowhere as linear. OTOH StigErik's woofer setup will have unusually low distortion and his room is well controlled.
Perhaps I'm just not being consistent enough. If I didn't accept that midband and HF distortion figures down to -90dB and better matter, I wouldn't be doing what I do. So all I might need to accept is that the same thing might very well hold true at low frequencies too.
@slowlearner: the only good way is using a dpdt switch between the RCA and XLR inputs.
Perhaps I'm just not being consistent enough. If I didn't accept that midband and HF distortion figures down to -90dB and better matter, I wouldn't be doing what I do. So all I might need to accept is that the same thing might very well hold true at low frequencies too.
@slowlearner: the only good way is using a dpdt switch between the RCA and XLR inputs.
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To answer my own question from a few days ago, the size of wire that will fit into each side of the speaker connector is AWG10, I tried AWG12 to see and no way will that fit (well maybe if you REALLY want to futz with it), but 10 fitted easily onto both sides of the connector for the bi-wiring arrangement.
Alan Garren
tomorrow I listen.
Alan Garren
tomorrow I listen.
You are right. I will use four SMPS600 to be on the safe side.And mine as well
I guess you won`t really know, unless you try both options
I doubt that you`ll find any other members, in this forum, with the excact same speakers as yourself so who can tell
Sorry for the novice questions, but as I said in an earlier post, I am not an engineer or anything close so don't yell at me for being stupid.
Which begs the question...... what do you do?
(sorry I can't help with your question)
I finally received my ncores! I did a quick hookup without a case, straight to my DAC without a volume control. It's a dual mono setup with 1 SMPS 600 per channel. I'm using a mac mini with pure music's dithered volume control to attenuate the signal. I must say I'm not as blown away as I thought I'd be. They are nice and clear but seem a little on the cold side and lack dynamics and richness compared with the Vectuer club 10 I had in their place before. I'm thinking it's because of using the dithered volume control. I do have some excellent passive attenuators on the way. I'm hoping this will solve the problem. Maybe someone here has more insight on using these electronic dithered volume controls then I do.
I have been doing all my listening tests using 24\96 and 24\192 recordings. I'm pretty sure everything is connected good. I'm not using any grounding right now. I'm not sure if that matters or not. I connected the shield together with the clear insulated and seperate black wire to the outer jacket of my Furutech rhodium RCA, and the red one to the centre. I plugged it straight into my Modded Eastern Electric Minimax plus (which sounds incredible with my club 10). The sound is very clear but cold and voices sound somewhat nasal. Even the bass seems less controlled. It's more boomy and less articulated. This is not what I should be experiencing based on the reviews I'm hearing from others. When I use the dithered volume control with the club 10, I can't detect any sound degradation like this. Does anyone have any insight on what could be wrong?
The digital volume control could be the problem. Have you tried running the Vecteur amp with the volume control fully open and the digital volume control in place? Depending on the gain of both amplifiers this might give a more apples to apples comparison.
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