John,
John, I entertain few opinions outside fields such as marketing, politics and economics...
Actually, many cutter-heads are at many points, the Westrex Heads had a much lower resonance. You need to account for the mechanical load of the lacquer you are cutting in this, open air resonance is not useful. There are many ways the resultant system may be designed and for example in order to DMM to even work you had to have a very high resonance frequency.
John, among the records in my collection that I would describe as "interesting" there are non that I know or suspect are halve speed cuts.
This was a technique used rather rarely and mainly for what I would describe as "audiophile dross", in other words records produced with extremely production values and sound quality, featuring often third rate artists (and of course MoFi's special issue stuff - which varied based on the few I have)...
Very little mainstream classical or jazz was to my knowledge ever cut halve speed, never mind mainstream Rock & Pop, by the original issuing labels...
Ciao T
John, I entertain few opinions outside fields such as marketing, politics and economics...
Actually, many cutter-heads are at many points, the Westrex Heads had a much lower resonance. You need to account for the mechanical load of the lacquer you are cutting in this, open air resonance is not useful. There are many ways the resultant system may be designed and for example in order to DMM to even work you had to have a very high resonance frequency.
John, among the records in my collection that I would describe as "interesting" there are non that I know or suspect are halve speed cuts.
This was a technique used rather rarely and mainly for what I would describe as "audiophile dross", in other words records produced with extremely production values and sound quality, featuring often third rate artists (and of course MoFi's special issue stuff - which varied based on the few I have)...
Very little mainstream classical or jazz was to my knowledge ever cut halve speed, never mind mainstream Rock & Pop, by the original issuing labels...
Ciao T
Hi,
Then you need quite a bit added weight. Add some at the headshell and try some at the around 2/3rd from the pivot along the arm length one... The precise point would be basically the golden ratio point...
Ciao T
Then you need quite a bit added weight. Add some at the headshell and try some at the around 2/3rd from the pivot along the arm length one... The precise point would be basically the golden ratio point...
Ciao T
Some audiophiles (like me) can. There is an entire amusing thread on the subject. Many of the recordings I own have blended bass, but not all.
Scott mentioned earlier the newest way to play records:
Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com
Stylus, schmylus. Thanks,
Chris
Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com
Stylus, schmylus. Thanks,
Chris
Pano,
I think that many believe they're hearing L-R deep bass, when in fact it is often (not always) blended. The directional cues however, are provided by the harmonics of the bass fundamental which, being higher in frequency, will get recorded in one channel or the other.
In the analog/Lp days there were important reasons why this technique would be generally applied, I'm not so sure that digital has these contraints.
I believe that there are individuals that may indeed be able to distinquish the difference, but I don't believe that I'm one of them...darn.
Best Regards,
TerryO
I did not know in those days what i know today.
I was just wondering myself why my records sounded so different with different cartridges. The same record wonderful with one, horrible with another one. Other records it was vice versa with the same pick-ups.
Later i have been reading the truth abouth records ( Mr.Andreoli, the maker of my expensive toys wrote the explanation in german ).
Most cartridges you can hear sing with volume down. This means a lot of loss, since the energy is not transfered into the coil. Well matched the cartridge is very quiet.
Earlier i was believing most of that what has been told to me from manufacturers. They were good salesman, but spoke wrong. I paid a lot for wrong informations from Van den Huul, Peter Suchy and others more. Sugano San ( Koetsu) said nothing , also not when asked why it tracked only 40 um...
I cannot say why cutting heads have a resonance exactly where it is, but it is there. It depends of materials, mass, temperature, cutting speed and so on. Records are cutted with apx. 17 dB more level in the highs due RIAA. So it seems logical to me, that even a small resonance there is critical.
Most High End Pick-Ups have also a strong resonance somewhere around 20 Khz....
Half speed mastering fixed some problems, yes.
Besides that , i am no engineer. Would love to be one to follow your discussions with J.C, which are very interesting and generate lots of good input for me.
John,
Nothing.
BUT, if the resonance is 10Hz with a Grado, it will be much higher with a DL-103.
Think of the 103 as the cartridge equivalent of a 1960..70 british 2-seat roadster and of the grado as the equivalent soft, pigwallowing chevvy...
Neither one is totally wrong as such, but where one is right and good the other is out of place.
Ciao T
Nothing.
BUT, if the resonance is 10Hz with a Grado, it will be much higher with a DL-103.
Think of the 103 as the cartridge equivalent of a 1960..70 british 2-seat roadster and of the grado as the equivalent soft, pigwallowing chevvy...
Neither one is totally wrong as such, but where one is right and good the other is out of place.
Ciao T
Most cutterheads have a strong resonance around 1-2 KHz and the cutting system can have 30-40 dB of feedback to flatten the response. (This could cause apoplexy among the anti-feedback vinyl lovers.) I don't think anyone is attempting to cut open loop today, its too risky. I remember something about Bob Fine "tightening down" the system so he would not need the feedback but I think that's almost myth. The specifics of cutting vinyl and copper are quite involved.
Most of the London Decca stuff from the 60's and the 70's were cut at 1/2 speed I have heard. Its was more common a practice than you might think.
Having heard its benefits directly I can attest to them and would push 1/2 speed mastering as having value. Some might find the differences less euphonic, however.
We discussed this before the electro-mechanical system of a phono cartridge is not very reciprocal. If you compute the mechanical energy vs. the electrical power in the coils many would be surprised.
RCA did 1/2 speed re-issues of some of their 1952-1964 catalog that IMHO sounded better than the CD's, in some cases much better. TAS slagged them compared to the original releases which I have heard on occasion but in far better systems than I had.
The RCA doggies and the Mercury's were genuinely great, but I sometimes wonder how objective our point of view can be. Those of a certain generation were raised on these, and their sound is just as much a part of the music as Creedence Clearwater Revival on AM radio. What could possibly compare to our memories?
Thanks,
Chris
Thanks,
Chris
And this is why the concept of damping the mechanical system with a loading resistor is a myth. The interesting question is how much the nonlinearity of the magnetics gets involved when a cartridge is loaded such that some current passes.
Quite agree. I find that most people have a strong bias in favor of the sound they grew up with, whatever that may be.
I grew with live acoustic music, VOTT and AR3a. Thus am biased in that direction. That can be overcome, but it remains a factor.
Hi,
Well, based on what little I know and have researched Decca used halve speed cutting during two short periods, first during mono-times when converting from 78's to LP and second when going from Mono to Stereo.
In both cases this was done because it was not possible to obtain timely record cutting heads of sufficient quality and lower grade items had to be forced into service. Better equipment was in both cases procured swiftly and normal speed cutting returned.
It is my best understanding that Decca did not employ halve speed mastering in any significant way, other than as a stopgap.
Halve Speed came back again with Quadro (does anyone even remember this stuff?) as again the cutting equipment was unequal to the task, however, given that quadro died even faster and more ignobly than SACD this was less of an issue.
Some Cutting Engineers then continued to cut some material at halve speed, other than MoFi Doug Sax is credited thusly, I would not know. In Europe the issued LP's where cut locally from the master tapes and not at halve speed, if if DS did.
Halve speed mastering trades reduced HF problems in the cutting system for increased LF problems. It is a different tradeoff. For issuing current vinyl the cutting engineer may choose as he or she pleases.
Though to a degree I fail to see the point of issuing material sourced from a good 192KHz/24Bit master on LP, I'll have the FLAC file please. For the historic record issued, we have what we have. In my case this very likely almost entirely cut at normal speed.
Ciao T
Well, based on what little I know and have researched Decca used halve speed cutting during two short periods, first during mono-times when converting from 78's to LP and second when going from Mono to Stereo.
In both cases this was done because it was not possible to obtain timely record cutting heads of sufficient quality and lower grade items had to be forced into service. Better equipment was in both cases procured swiftly and normal speed cutting returned.
It is my best understanding that Decca did not employ halve speed mastering in any significant way, other than as a stopgap.
Halve Speed came back again with Quadro (does anyone even remember this stuff?) as again the cutting equipment was unequal to the task, however, given that quadro died even faster and more ignobly than SACD this was less of an issue.
Some Cutting Engineers then continued to cut some material at halve speed, other than MoFi Doug Sax is credited thusly, I would not know. In Europe the issued LP's where cut locally from the master tapes and not at halve speed, if if DS did.
Halve speed mastering trades reduced HF problems in the cutting system for increased LF problems. It is a different tradeoff. For issuing current vinyl the cutting engineer may choose as he or she pleases.
Though to a degree I fail to see the point of issuing material sourced from a good 192KHz/24Bit master on LP, I'll have the FLAC file please. For the historic record issued, we have what we have. In my case this very likely almost entirely cut at normal speed.
Ciao T
When we talk of the LF resonance, are we making a distinction between the vertical resonance and the lateral resonance, or will they be essentially the same?
I'm assuming the primary component in the LF resonance is the stylus compliance against the effective tonearm mass. I guess if the vertical and horizontal compliance of the cartridge are the same (why would they be different?), then maybe vertical and lateral arm-cartridge resonance may be the same.
Here is another possibly interesting question. We often worry about the degradation with time of the stylus compliance element (usually stiffening with time). Might we be able to discern the amount of degradation of the sylus compliance by noting the arm-cartridge resonance and comparing it with what it should have been when the cartridge was new?
I've got a lightly used V15 V that is about 25 years old. I'd love to be able to objectively discern how much stylus degradation has occurred over those years when it went unused.
Cheers,
Bob
Hi,
It really depends. IF the lateral and vertical compliance are the same (not a given, try a Decca pickup) AND the arm has the same effective moving mass in both planes, yes, the resonances will be the same.
In practice I cannot remember a single arm/cartridge combo where they where the same, though usually quite close (using HFN Test Record).
Ciao T
It really depends. IF the lateral and vertical compliance are the same (not a given, try a Decca pickup) AND the arm has the same effective moving mass in both planes, yes, the resonances will be the same.
In practice I cannot remember a single arm/cartridge combo where they where the same, though usually quite close (using HFN Test Record).
Ciao T
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