My current system has way too much sand in the signal path so i was over at a guys house who designs amps and makes transformers. My plan is to put in a tube line stage and hopefully add some musicality (sp) to my system. Anyway, somehow we got on amps and I said I didn't understand how people could swear by little flea powered amps. He asked if I had ever heard one, and i said that no I had not. We then go to his listening room and he fires up a 1.7 watt 45 set. Well boys and girls, I was humbled. The sound was nothing less than stunning. I don't know all the proper audiophile terms to describe it, I can only say it was superb. Sounded orders of magnitude better than my old mc275, and up until yesterday i would have said those were some pretty strong words. This amp only had 1.7 watts, it clipped over that. But at about 1 watt, it was loud enough to where i couldn't here the owner maybe 10 feet from me.
I must say that my attitudes on power have been at the very least, shaken. Would 1.7 watts replace my mc2205? No, I sometimes like to irritate the neighbors and shake some walls. Would a 10 to 12 watt 300B? Maybe. The clarity and just plain music were very impressive. I think I'll build this preamp and if i don't get the desired results, fork out the dough for some good iron and build a nice little 300b. Guess I'm not too old to learn new tricks after all. Anyway, thanks for reading. Regards, J.D.
I must say that my attitudes on power have been at the very least, shaken. Would 1.7 watts replace my mc2205? No, I sometimes like to irritate the neighbors and shake some walls. Would a 10 to 12 watt 300B? Maybe. The clarity and just plain music were very impressive. I think I'll build this preamp and if i don't get the desired results, fork out the dough for some good iron and build a nice little 300b. Guess I'm not too old to learn new tricks after all. Anyway, thanks for reading. Regards, J.D.
Do you know what the efficiency of the speakers were ?
Although squarely aimed at the solid state forums this might interest you,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soli...er-do-you-really-need-domestic-listening.html
A watt is a watt is a watt after all... just that hollow state ones are louder
Although squarely aimed at the solid state forums this might interest you,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soli...er-do-you-really-need-domestic-listening.html
A watt is a watt is a watt after all... just that hollow state ones are louder
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Yes, He said the were 98db. I must admit that my opinions of diy have changed also. Previously, i considered diy an interesting hobby for a garage or office system. Not so sure about that one anymore either. Think the more I learn, the less I know. Regards, J.D.
Your test is so subjective that you may be jumping for something that is an illusion.
You also are listening in a different room and with different speakers.
The problem is that you did not bring your own amp and run an AB comparison in his room with his speakers.
Additionally, how can you be sure your MC275 is running its best, too?
Maybe compare the MC2205 with his SET.
I really don't want to start a war over SET versus PP versus solid state, but you have to choose the sound that you like and it is purely your call.
However, you really owe it to yourself to do a fair comparison to make sure that it is the amp's sound that you like and not his system that is doing the talking.
As far as tube sound goes, that is a subjective call. I have a 60W per channel tube power amp I built, but I would not say it has a tube sound. In fact it has no discernible coloration (or distortion) at all, which was the design goal for me.
By the way, did you mention what speakers you have? What is the speaker sensitivity? That and how loud you like to listen determines how much wattage you need, but I would always recommend having more than that just for the headroom.
Remember, you need to double your amp's power for every 3 dB of SPL increase.
1: Agreed, purely subjective. I wouldn't call it an illusion, I heard what I heard. Besides, I would say that how music sounds to anyone is purely subjective.
2: Again, agreed. He didn't say what make the speakers were, but they were very nice. I may yet take my amp over and give it a listen.
3: The mc275 ran pretty good, think it was optimal, was only 3 years old when i sold it.
4: Agree again, he does have a nice system.
5: My speakers are Klipsch rf7. Allegedly 102 db/1m/1watt. I don't want to start a war over set, pp, solid state either. I'm just saying i was stunned by what i heard out of this little 1.7 watt amp, and that I may just be willing to fork out the bucks to find out just how well it does sound in my house. Didn't mean to start anything. Regards, J.D.
30 years ago I was designing what I thought was high-end then: fast precise symmetric complementary transistor power amplifiers, and could not understand why that poor by specs Mono-130 amp made by Tesla, with 4xEL34 tubes, sounds cleaner and louder than my 2 times more powerful and much more linear according to measurements and logic amps...
Welcome to the camp!
Welcome to the camp!
A really big hint to solving this, I think is that we all know that if you walk down a street where ther are bars with music inside we can tell in 5 seconds from outside on the sidewalk if the music inside is live or recorded. It is dead easy even if you are tone deaf. Why is this?
I think even the best HiFi, even with a high end 0.001% THD "fast" amp and $200 RCA cables, the total "system level" distortion runs at about 30% or even much more. Yes the amp is near perfect but if you measure the entire signal chain from the studio's microphone, pre amps and mixer desk and the mastering process and your listing room acoustics the total system THD is huge at least 30% maybe 50% for some genre.
My theory is that the amount of distortion does not mater. Most of use can live with that 30% number and even like it. What matters is the KIND of distortion. For whatever reason solid state amps make a kind we absolutely can not stand and so we spend good many to reduce to under 0.1% at least. The sound is so bad that even if 1% of the total 30% is coming from a SS power amp we call the result "unlistenable". But Tubes seen to make a kind of distortion we can tolerate and even grow to like. If 1% of the 30% total comes from a tube amp we don't seem to mind.
Point is to think about a component's contribution to the total distortion compared to live performance. Amps don't contribute much
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Now think about what you just wrote about your theory.
If an amp makes .001% distortion, then the most it can contribute to the signal chain is that amount. However, for this experiment, let's imagine your amp is 1% (threshold of detection).
The remaining 29% is from the drivers and possibly the enclosure.
It will not matter what type of amplifier you use (solid state or tube), neither will make that 29% speaker distortion sound better or worse.
Lastly, the distortion from an amp should normally be below the threshold of detection (for any amp worth its salt). That means that a tube amp or solid state amp should be nearly indistinguishable from each other when operated below its clipping point.
The point where that diverges is when those amps are driven to clipping or beyond. The solid state amp yields lots of harmonics and harsh distortion. The tube amp is generally more forgiving in its distortion and less annoying.
Unless you are not using an amp for guitar you should size the amp so that it never operates in the clipping region, period. If correctly sized both types of amps should be crystal clear and uncolored. That is how I run my amp for HiFi.
If you are using it for a guitar most people like the distortion produced by a tube amp much better for its coloration of the sound (me included).
Damping factor is another topic and solid state amps have lots of it, but if you have a passive crossover then damping factor is not really a critical consideration in my opinion.
Nonsense. Tubes sound good in spite of the distortion, probably for a variety of reasons. This is why a tube amp sounds better at low volume than high volume, where the distortion is higher.
It is easy enough to convince yourself of this -- use DSP and a computer to add a bunch of 2nd harmonic distortion to an opamp and see if it sounds better, or like a tube. It doesn't.
A totally different phenomenon. Guitar amps are clipping, and the power supply is sagging. They are not just adding a few % of harmonic distortion.
What nonsense.
Tubes dont have a linear slope, designers try to use the most linear part of the slope.
A clean SS amp sounds poor, its the distortion of tubes (harmonics) that make it sound nice.
On a guitar tube amp a lot of harmonics are added that gives lead and rhythm guitar bite.
neither does a naked transistor - so what's your point, other than transistors have enough open loop gain to allow a ton of feedback; just look at the distortion spectrum of a SE SS amp without global FB.
...and what does this have to do with low powered triode amplification?
Feedback can be applied to straighten out the tubes bent slope.
Of course it is relevant to a SET because the SET is using a tube !
No, it is not.
Some time ago I offered a device to all who believe that tube sounds good because of some kind of some tube-specific distortions. The device was capable to dial-in more of low level distortions. But nobody liked to dial them in. So, what is the nonsense: that people prefer tubes because of added distortions, or despite of added distortions?
Nothing has a linear slope. Air that transfer sounds distort them. All surfaces that absorb and reflect sounds distort them. But you don't call reflected by wall sound distorted. Guess, why?
That myth does not work in reality. Distortions of tubes added by digital modeling devices don't make sounds more real.
Absolutely true. But it is absolutely true for electric guitars only. Acoustic guitars sound nice without any added distortions. Guess, why?
I would disagree again, even acoustic guitars sound sweeter with a valve distorting.
I have a Zoom 747 SS effects box that emulates valves very well.
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