actually I have silver cables that have turned black, and its no problem, or at least not to me
cable still works
or in other words, even in this "flawed" state it is still able to transfer exstremely nice sound
now, there are people who think it sounds bad the minute they see the black surface, or even think about it
but like I said, it doesnt bother me none, thus I hear nothing wrong
but what do I know, I only listen to music and not trying to listen for the flaws
I like to fous on the positive aspects of music, and not the negative ones
but I have been there
and its nothing but a pitch dark alley without light or joy, a no end
cable still works
or in other words, even in this "flawed" state it is still able to transfer exstremely nice sound
now, there are people who think it sounds bad the minute they see the black surface, or even think about it
but like I said, it doesnt bother me none, thus I hear nothing wrong
but what do I know, I only listen to music and not trying to listen for the flaws
I like to fous on the positive aspects of music, and not the negative ones
but I have been there
and its nothing but a pitch dark alley without light or joy, a no end
@bear - this was to seal silver off from oxidation. Flaxseed oil exhibits 3 very desirable properties:
- it has very high affinity to oxygen, so it is good at preventing oxidation
- it cures (hardens) over time, making it dry to touch and not messy - this can be sped by "baking" the cable in oven for a few days at 60-70 deg.C (any higher will start decomposing oil, making it brown)
- it's 100% natural; I like to use as natural materials in my HiFi as possible. They are much more pleasant to work with than plastics and they tend to sound, well, more natural
If you want to try this approach I would recommend wrapping the cable in another silk layer (on top of the one that it already has) and then impregnate it too. In fact, three layers are even better. This may seem like a redundant and unnecessary thing to do, but it actually helps dampen the cable and it does improve the sound.
@tinitus - "making silver softer" is called annealing and it involves heating it to near its melting point and then letting it cool slowly. Not something one can do at home, unfortunately because silver melts at 960C... unless you buy a device called annealing kiln (which is really just a kind of a souped-up electric oven), but it costs a bomb and eats electricity like there's no tomorrow
- it has very high affinity to oxygen, so it is good at preventing oxidation
- it cures (hardens) over time, making it dry to touch and not messy - this can be sped by "baking" the cable in oven for a few days at 60-70 deg.C (any higher will start decomposing oil, making it brown)
- it's 100% natural; I like to use as natural materials in my HiFi as possible. They are much more pleasant to work with than plastics and they tend to sound, well, more natural
If you want to try this approach I would recommend wrapping the cable in another silk layer (on top of the one that it already has) and then impregnate it too. In fact, three layers are even better. This may seem like a redundant and unnecessary thing to do, but it actually helps dampen the cable and it does improve the sound.
@tinitus - "making silver softer" is called annealing
and it involves heating it to near its melting point and then letting it cool slowly. Not something one can do at home, unfortunately because silver melts at 960C... unless you buy a device called annealing kiln (which is really just a kind of a souped-up electric oven), but it costs a bomb and eats electricity like there's no tomorrow Silver oxide (the black stuff) is just as conductive as silver metal. No problem (electrically), so technically speaking, as compared to appearance only (ie jewelry), it's not a "flawed state", it's a "perfectly good state". The pure oxide is often used in electronic assemblies, ie silver oxide batteries.
The thing to pay attention to with silver wire for jewelry is the various grades of silver commonly used and the alloying material to create those grades. In many cases the choice of alloying material is wide, and it is not critical for the application in jewelry (or more precisely, where it is critical in jewelry is not relevant to an audio application), so it can be an unknown and is often not normally specified. It pays to learn a bit about the common grades and what they may be alloyed with.
Audio Grade silver wire (99.999% or "five nines") is extremely difficult to manufacture due to the purity; few wire fabs are capable of the cleanliness, in particular the atmospheric cleanliness, required. So it tends to be expensive and there are only a very few capable manufacturers worldwide ... think "two or three".
Drop your requirements down to 99.99% or "four nines" and the number of capable manufacturers grows into the hundreds. Thus silver wire intended for jewelry can be much less expensive since the manufacturing premium simply isn't there.
The thing to pay attention to with silver wire for jewelry is the various grades of silver commonly used and the alloying material to create those grades. In many cases the choice of alloying material is wide, and it is not critical for the application in jewelry (or more precisely, where it is critical in jewelry is not relevant to an audio application), so it can be an unknown and is often not normally specified. It pays to learn a bit about the common grades and what they may be alloyed with.
Audio Grade silver wire (99.999% or "five nines") is extremely difficult to manufacture due to the purity; few wire fabs are capable of the cleanliness, in particular the atmospheric cleanliness, required. So it tends to be expensive and there are only a very few capable manufacturers worldwide ... think "two or three".
Drop your requirements down to 99.99% or "four nines" and the number of capable manufacturers grows into the hundreds. Thus silver wire intended for jewelry can be much less expensive since the manufacturing premium simply isn't there.
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No, it's not. It *is* conductive, but significantly less so than silver metal.
I did not try, but I will, why not use gold wire ?
I would like to hear from someone who knows, why and where is some specific wire better than others?
If 2 audio signals sound different to our ears, they should be different electrically, or... ?
If yes, why no one can't measure it, is it that complicated ?
If no, how can 2 identical signals sound different ?
I would like to hear from someone who knows, why and where is some specific wire better than others?
If 2 audio signals sound different to our ears, they should be different electrically, or... ?
If yes, why no one can't measure it, is it that complicated ?
If no, how can 2 identical signals sound different ?
I think that theoretical resistance of a given metal is somewhat secondary to other considerations when choosing a good wire for your cables.
First of all – it really is theoretical, because it has been measured on a laboratory-pure sample. Besides, resistance is only one of the very many factors that affect sound.
Purity is important though and I would be hesitant to use any metal less than 99.95% pure.
Also important is temper (hardness). Only soft-annealed metals are suitable for audio. Because of that, solid core cables need to be handled carefully; bending them should be avoided as this work-hardens the metal, worsening its audio properties (and eventually results in snapping the conductor).
The importance of insulation material should not be underestimated either – both for its dielectric function and mechanical damping properties. Silk seems to be the best overall – neutral and natural; cotton is ok, but has the potential of sounding a bit aggressive. The only man-made insulation I would consider is Teflon (although I’m not very fond of it). Other plastics are almost universally inferior.
By the way, gold plated silver is not a bad idea actually. There is a theory that plating a highly-conductive metal with one that has lower conductivity is beneficial to its audio performance. While I can’t comment on that, I know that for quite some time 0.5mm gold plated silver wire from wires.co.uk has been Peter Daniel’s choice for conducting input signals in his amplifiers. I have also used it in my amps with good results.
Gold plating apparently not only makes a wire very practical (thanks to gold’s extreme resistance to environmental factors), but also changes (dare I say improves?) the sound somewhat.
First of all – it really is theoretical, because it has been measured on a laboratory-pure sample. Besides, resistance is only one of the very many factors that affect sound.
Purity is important though and I would be hesitant to use any metal less than 99.95% pure.
Also important is temper (hardness). Only soft-annealed metals are suitable for audio. Because of that, solid core cables need to be handled carefully; bending them should be avoided as this work-hardens the metal, worsening its audio properties (and eventually results in snapping the conductor).
The importance of insulation material should not be underestimated either – both for its dielectric function and mechanical damping properties. Silk seems to be the best overall – neutral and natural; cotton is ok, but has the potential of sounding a bit aggressive. The only man-made insulation I would consider is Teflon (although I’m not very fond of it). Other plastics are almost universally inferior.
By the way, gold plated silver is not a bad idea actually. There is a theory that plating a highly-conductive metal with one that has lower conductivity is beneficial to its audio performance. While I can’t comment on that, I know that for quite some time 0.5mm gold plated silver wire from wires.co.uk has been Peter Daniel’s choice for conducting input signals in his amplifiers. I have also used it in my amps with good results.
Gold plating apparently not only makes a wire very practical (thanks to gold’s extreme resistance to environmental factors), but also changes (dare I say improves?) the sound somewhat.
It may be argued - I wouldn't argue, no mileage in that... - that plating with something like gold on the exterior drives most of the current under the outer layer, which in the case of it being silver would perhaps be an advantage. But the reality is that the whole bit is going to be on the quantum level, which is several levels above my pay grade...
_-_-bear
_-_-bear
As I said I didn't order enough wire for adequate length- so the experiment was to be on hold. But yesterday, instead I terminated only the positive side of the tweeters with the silver, leaving the negative wire still as cardas litz copper. The difference was immediately noticeable as an improvement. There's definitely more extension and detail, and it's indeed much smoother sounding. The smoothness is so much more so that I compare it to an equivalent of having a preamp tube upgrade- such as going from a russian reissue to NOS. However it sounds a tad bit forward and bright, though never fatiguing. I want to think that it's from the copper wire that's still half the connection which needs to be cured with silver next week or so. If the further improvement is just as significant, I plan to replace all my internal wires with silver and make some interconnects also.
@bear - you could argue with a theory, but you can't argue with your ears
@PreSapian - what insulation do you use? Did you consider using a thinner wire? At around 0.7mm (and below) the skin effect becomes irrelevant and treble clarity improves, compared to a thicker wire, while resistance is still acceptable for reasonable lengths.
@PreSapian - what insulation do you use? Did you consider using a thinner wire? At around 0.7mm (and below) the skin effect becomes irrelevant and treble clarity improves, compared to a thicker wire, while resistance is still acceptable for reasonable lengths.
Interconnect: 2 gold plated silver wires in a natural cotton sleeve. One nude and the other running in some loose fitting PTFE tubing
Speaker cable: 4 silver wires in 2 sizes (2 for + 2 for -) and a single copper line running in larger natural cotton sleeve. Both silver pairs inside a separate run of that 'cable tidy' spiral stuff you can get (to bulk out and separate the +/- but have a mostly air dielectric) and the copper running nude by itself as a ground wire between amp chassis and speaker chassis
Speaker cable: 4 silver wires in 2 sizes (2 for + 2 for -) and a single copper line running in larger natural cotton sleeve. Both silver pairs inside a separate run of that 'cable tidy' spiral stuff you can get (to bulk out and separate the +/- but have a mostly air dielectric) and the copper running nude by itself as a ground wire between amp chassis and speaker chassis
Uncle Leon:
I'm using medical cotton tape (the ones used to patch up cotton bandages) since it was readily available in the house. (for me the hobby has a C at the end- do it yourself cheap hehe) the wires are 1mm at about 3.5 feet in length. Do you still think I should go for .7mm? is my insulation choice good enough? thanks.
JRKO:
for the interconnect instruction do you mean for only one cable? should which wire be run in the tubing? the ground or the +?
I'm using medical cotton tape (the ones used to patch up cotton bandages) since it was readily available in the house. (for me the hobby has a C at the end- do it yourself cheap hehe) the wires are 1mm at about 3.5 feet in length. Do you still think I should go for .7mm? is my insulation choice good enough? thanks.
JRKO:
for the interconnect instruction do you mean for only one cable? should which wire be run in the tubing? the ground or the +?
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Here is 3 interesting links, I am dead from reading it all and there is some good points made:
Cables and Interconnects — Reviews and News from Audioholics
Exotic Materials and Cable Construction — Reviews and News from Audioholics
Silver Saboteurs - Are Silver Audio Cables Better? — Reviews and News from Audioholics
Cables and Interconnects — Reviews and News from Audioholics
Exotic Materials and Cable Construction — Reviews and News from Audioholics
Silver Saboteurs - Are Silver Audio Cables Better? — Reviews and News from Audioholics
I won't go into whether a given cable is preferable to another given cable, but with regard to the "audio bandwidth" being an upper limit on audibility in audio electronics, there is a nice paper by Nelson Pass that addresses distortion and negative feedback, and in an easy-to-understand manner to boot.
http://www.passlabs.com/pdfs/articles/distortion_and_feedback.pdf
Although the paper is worth a read for the topic it addresses, it touches on the subject of what happens in an audio amplifier at many times the human hearing frequency, and what, if any, effect it can have on an amplifier using the typical circuits employed in modern amplifiers.
This issues discussed are by no means the only possible examples, it would be unwise to think of 20 kHz and above, or even 200 kHz and above, as being irrelevant or impossible to have an effect on a human-range audio signal.
Similarly, it is not wise to conclude those who claim to hear a difference between two configurations in a playback chain, even when the difference can be clearly shown to manifest itself above the audio band, automatically means they are either blessed with ultrasonic abilities, or alternately are deluding themselves and attempting to delude us all. Of course, they very well could be delusional ;-), but if so, perhaps not for the "obvious" reason that what they claim to hear is "impossible".
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