The subconscious entirely determines perceived reality independently of physical stimulation of the senses? Baby >>> bathwater.
What I find strange in that regard is how many times my conscious mind had quite high expectations of a new idea or piece of equipment and my subconscious mind (ears) disagreed. Although I agree that you can't use sighted tests as proof, that doesn't automatically mean they are always "totally useless".
Even better Andre is to try not to have any expectations at all when you listen to something new or different.For me only the experience is enough.
As for objectivity(this is not addressed to your post),if you like more something that is cheaper than yours,admit it.My last cartridge costs 3 times less than my previous one.If anyone will ask,yes,I could afford a cartridge much more expensive than the one I bought.I don't think objectivity is a privilege of specific groups of people........... Strange though,although one will say that my preference to the cheaper cartridge was a subjective one,yet,no ear/brain mechanism "tried to foul me" and go for a more expensive solution,eventhough magazines,friends, etc........ have many such recommendations............
Your quoted post accurately reflects current scientific thinking, backed up by extensive research, and is in no way in conflict with the fact that inputs to your perception apparatus come from your senses.
Really, it's not usefull to keep this kind of discussion going unless you read up on it. I'm not trying to get personal or nasty, but I don't know how to say this otherwise.
There really is a whole world to discover there. It won't diminish your view of humans, on the contrary. Give it a try.
jd
denial and blaming others are the classics, and very common
expectations and prejustice also go well together
I have ok sound now
But thinking back I sure remember hifi as being a long and continious line of disappointments
I think the main break was learning how to make speakers sound like I want them to sound
And not have to rely on what others think it should sound like
Cables ? I have built many, but dont care much about them no more
Maybe just because I have good ones now
But I hope to get energy and time to experiment with cables again
Its fast and fun, and cheap
Whether it matters or not, I see no reason not to do it
expectations and prejustice also go well together
I have ok sound now
But thinking back I sure remember hifi as being a long and continious line of disappointments
I think the main break was learning how to make speakers sound like I want them to sound
And not have to rely on what others think it should sound like
Cables ? I have built many, but dont care much about them no more
Maybe just because I have good ones now
But I hope to get energy and time to experiment with cables again
Its fast and fun, and cheap
Whether it matters or not, I see no reason not to do it
Too many common experiences among people for it all to be subcontious trickery. Some people can hear it and some can't. That is realistic and possible. Having everyone who hears a difference (most people agree on what the differences are, with some exceptions of course) suffering from the same false perceptions is extremely un-realistic and IMO it is impossible. You need to stop and inject a bit of realism every so often.
Funny how audio is so complex as to be riddled with false perceptions but it can be tested in one afternoon with a few guys in someones basement.
DBT = waste of time and energy that could be used to listen to your equipment they way it was meant to be used. Live with a new piece of gear for a week or a month before you decide you know everything you need to know. It's the finely tuned systems that sounds the best. Not the rigs where a scope and meter decided someones personal preference.
Hearing a difference does not equal knowing what the differences are.
If the perception stuff were true people would be running red lights everyday thinking they were yellow or green. You can't just switch the logic off when its conveinient.
We do get it right sometimes.
I wish people would just come right out and say so when they have an axe to grind with people who make lots of money selling cables. Some are ** artists and some are not, same as any other product.
Funny how audio is so complex as to be riddled with false perceptions but it can be tested in one afternoon with a few guys in someones basement.
DBT = waste of time and energy that could be used to listen to your equipment they way it was meant to be used. Live with a new piece of gear for a week or a month before you decide you know everything you need to know. It's the finely tuned systems that sounds the best. Not the rigs where a scope and meter decided someones personal preference.
Hearing a difference does not equal knowing what the differences are.
If the perception stuff were true people would be running red lights everyday thinking they were yellow or green. You can't just switch the logic off when its conveinient.
We do get it right sometimes.
I wish people would just come right out and say so when they have an axe to grind with people who make lots of money selling cables. Some are ** artists and some are not, same as any other product.
Too many common experiences among people for it all to be subcontious trickery. Some people can hear it and some can't. That is realistic and possible. Having everyone who hears a difference (most people agree on what the differences are, with some exceptions of course) suffering from the same false perceptions is extremely un-realistic and IMO it is impossible. You need to stop and inject a bit of realism every so often.
Funny how audio is so complex as to be riddled with false perceptions but it can be tested in one afternoon with a few guys in someones basement.
DBT = waste of time and energy that could be used to listen to your equipment they way it was meant to be used. Live with a new piece of gear for a week or a month before you decide you know everything you need to know. It's the finely tuned systems that sounds the best. Not the rigs where a scope and meter decided someones personal preference.
Hearing a difference does not equal knowing what the differences are.
If the perception stuff were true people would be running red lights everyday thinking they were yellow or green. You can't just switch the logic off when its conveinient.
We do get it right sometimes.
I wish people would just come right out and say so when they have an axe to grind with people who make lots of money selling cables. Some are ** artists and some are not, same as any other product.
Funny how audio is so complex as to be riddled with false perceptions but it can be tested in one afternoon with a few guys in someones basement.
DBT = waste of time and energy that could be used to listen to your equipment they way it was meant to be used. Live with a new piece of gear for a week or a month before you decide you know everything you need to know. It's the finely tuned systems that sounds the best. Not the rigs where a scope and meter decided someones personal preference.
Hearing a difference does not equal knowing what the differences are.
If the perception stuff were true people would be running red lights everyday thinking they were yellow or green. You can't just switch the logic off when its conveinient.
We do get it right sometimes.
I wish people would just come right out and say so when they have an axe to grind with people who make lots of money selling cables. Some are ** artists and some are not, same as any other product.
I'm already aware of some of this research, and myself would hesitate to use the word 'controls' in this context. However it is nonetheless the case that the conscious mind's notion that its in control is illusory. This is nothing new - I believe the Buddhists have been saying it for over a thousand years.
Because the hearing process goes on in the subconscious mind, and that process is strongly influenced by subconscious suggestion then that person's awareness is presented with sounds which are better. They really do hear it sounding better.
What the person consciously believes is rather irrelevant - the subconscious mind believes its better, so it presents 'better' sounds to that person's awareness. I think its the conscious mind which comes up with the spurious reasons to maintain cognitive harmony.
For people with subconscious expectations, I agree, which is the vast majority. However your claim seems to rest on the notion that there is nobody who has no subconscious expectations and that is what I'd like evidence for if you have it. Right now it seems that your subconscious really believes there's no-one, but that's just one more subconscious expectation which you're beholden to
If by 'free will' you mean the notion that the conscious mind makes choices, then yes, Benjamin Libet's experiments around 40 years ago ruled that out. I take it that 'free will' resides in the unconscious and hence individual autonomy is unaffected.
How does one correlate one's subconscious (if he even knows what it may hold) to what he may hear in an audio system? It certainly won't have anything to do with expectations, because those are rarely met.
John
Yes, I had read your previous post - it was orthogonal to the statement of mine you had claimed was incorrect.
Yes, but my statement was 'placebos are used....' not 'placebos are always used...'. I was replying to someone who had (if I remember correctly) asked for the rationale behind placebos. I have followed the detail in the report of an AIDS drug trial where placebos were used initially but the experiment quickly became unblinded.
My guess here is the reporting of side effects informs the unconscious mind. If the patients are kept from hearing about the possible side effects, what happens then?
placebo effects
Your guess would be wrong for a valid study (one with useful results). Your strawman won't hold water
What 'reporting of side effects'? The side effects reported are not prompted. You must not understand the protocol. No subconcious cueing involved.
The results would depend on the drug being tested.
Your guess would be wrong for a valid study (one with useful results). Your strawman won't hold water
What 'reporting of side effects'? The side effects reported are not prompted. You must not understand the protocol. No subconcious cueing involved.
The results would depend on the drug being tested.
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