Well, I must be handicapped in that regard. Tho I can enjoy music over an AM radio, or sometimes pick up someone's mood thru a crappy cell phone, it really has very little emotional impact. It may convey the information, the tune and a little more, but very little more.
That's why I completely gave up on recorded music for almost 20 years. Just didn't do it for me. And that's why I pursue Hi-Fi now, the better the sound quality, the more I connect with the music. And why I got a real telephone after all those years of not owning one. I get a better sense of what the person is saying.
I wish it were not so, but that's the way I'm built. I do try very hard to hear thru bad technology, but can't always do it. I doubt I'm alone in this.
I'm still hooked on the sound quality of the B&O Beocom 1000/2000 series from the 1980s. (+ looks and feel)
Hello AJ! Hmmm, that's interesting. I didn't know that SY was considering building a pair of Fostex-based speakers. I checked out the link you provided concerning the Morgan Jones "Arpeggio" speakers that SY's going to build. After reading all 3 pages in that thread. I believe these speakers should sound quite nice. That said, they aren't quite in the same league as the Sachikos. SY I hope I'm not offending you but, I see the Morgan Jones "Arpeggio" speakers as being closer to the entry-level side of these types of speakers, whereas the Sachikos are closer to the pinnacle of these type of designs. I also believe the sonic improvements would be akin to what one would expect when moving from entry-level to the pinnacle of anyone's speaker line.
When I've spoken with Scottmoose concerning my speakers ---{I don't know if you knew this or not AJ but, Scottmoose designed the Sachiko enclosures I use}--- he told me that a pair of Sachikos with the Fostex FE206E drivers were compared side-by-side with a pair of much, much more expensive Lamhorns 1.8 speakers ---{I don't recall if they had the REPS R-1 or AER MK-1 "full-range" drivers}--- at a RMAF and virtually everyone prefered the Sachiko/FE206E over the Lamhorn 1.8. You can read about the Lamhorn 1.8 here; 6moons audio reviews:RL Acoustic Lamhorn 1.8
I know you don't believe wires "should" influence the sound of a speaker but, I can tell that replacing the internal wires with the copper wire from NASA made an improvement. However let's forget that for now, ok? The two biggest and most obvious improvements came when I:
- upgraded from Fostex's regular $184.40/pr FE206E to their now sold out, very limited edition $400/pr FE206ES-R drivers. Better high frequency extension, that's not shrill, as well as much, much better bass extension and control.
- had Mike Rispoli treat the cones with his absolutely incredible, proprietary, 5-step, process! It took Mike somewhere between 8-10 years to develope this process and I cannot sing it's praises enough. I'm not very adept at describing what I'm hearing, so I'll just say it just sounds more like real, live, unamplified instruments & singers do!
I find the Sachikos now come as close as any speaker I've ever heard to being everything I've always wanted. They have outstanding inner resolution & detail, superb separation & soundstaging, life-like harmonics & timbre, dynamics to die for and tight, tuneful bass down to 30Hz! Being 96dB efficient, it only takes a few good watts but, I have 40W/ch so I have headroom to spare!
Is that the Dave of Planet 10? If so I've talked with him about the Sachikos and the FE206ES-R drivers in the past. Dave's a great guy. He uses the EnABL treatment on his drivers. I'd love to be able to hear what that process does before and after to a driver like I did with Mike Rispoli's process. Since I've already had Mike's process done on my drivers, I'm not sure having my driver's EnABLed would make for any further sonic improvements or not? I tried to get Dave and Mike to exchange emails by suggesting to both of them that they do that but, I don't believe that ever came to pass. I sure wish it did! Thanks to Dave of Planet 10 and especially Mike Rispoli and Scottmoose I've been brought closer to Audio Nirvana than I ever thought I'd be.
Speaking of measuring isn't it amazing how much more linear these Fostex drivers are in PROPER cabinets than one would expect them to be from reading their published specs? Now please forgive me for a short rant. It's impossible to gauge what someone's system will sound like ---{especially if they use single fullrange drivers}--- unless you've actually heard it. The reason for this is there's many cases of people slapping single fullrange drivers into enclosures that aren't properly designed for them. I've heard more than a couple speakers that were single fullrange driver based that absolutely sounded terrible!!!! So terrible in fact, I almost swore, like many people do, that there's no such thing as a good, let alone outstanding sounding, single, fullrange driver based, set of speakers. Hearing the Sachiko's with FE206E drivers changed my mind completely and hearing the Sachiko's with FE206ES-R drivers changed my mind forever! As I told Terry J, most people say after hearing my speakers ---{and I agree with them}--- that they sound like Quads with real-world dynamics & bass!
Yes AJ I owned the Tannoy 800. It was the studio version with the rough, gray nextel finish I believe it's called. Actually, like with most times I've upgraded an audio product, it wasn't done so much because of what they did wrong as it was done because of my hearing something else that IMO sounded more like I believe live, unamplified music does. Fact is once live, unamplified music became my reference standard, everytime I've purchased an audio product, it was because it was the best at replicating the sound of live, unamplified music that:
- I'd heard up to that point in time.
- I could afford at that point in time.
Believe this or not but, I sold my Tannoy 800's to Stealth Audio! Yup same Stealth Audio that makes the ICs and power cords I'm presently using and hopefully the speaker wires I'll someday soon be using.
AJ I remember awhile back when we were exchanging comments on Audio Asylum. You posted the Fostex FE206E's published specs and commented on how they couldn't possibly sound smooth or anywhere near flat. Now that you've had this idea proven wrong by your own measurements of the FE206ES-R drivers, perhaps someday you'd like to come up with a couple of your favorite CDs and listen to my system for yourself? I believe from how well we're communicating these days, that day is going to come to pass someday and perhaps someday soon...
Thetubeguy1954
~Rational Subjectivism. It's An Acquired Taste!~
The phones that France Telecom made in the 80s were also very good. I've considered buying one, just for the quality.
I realize that you are talking about loudspeakers, but I have to make new products, so has anyone who is serious about wire differences, any recommendations for interconnect wire? Specific brand is not so important, but material and geometry should be. I am told that I can get just about anything for one of my new projects, so any suggestions?
By the way, both of you guys have now officially horrified my wife. When I showed her the pic of Tom's speakers (to contrast with Morgan's FE166E build), she immediately exclaimed, "No ****ing way!!!" When she saw Terry's, she actually shrieked a bit.
My speakers are looking better and better to her.
SY I'm quite sure you're looking better and better to her as well!
Thetubeguy1954
~Rational Subjectivism. It's An Acquired Taste!~
Four runs of ultra fine Type 2 litz wire (5 x 33/46) with cotton jacketing, in a self-shielding Milloit braid.
se
Tom, wouldn't you have to hear the Arpeggios first, before deciding what they sound like?
In any case, if/when the DBT goes down, maybe I'll bring over a comparable (to Arpeggio) size bookshelf for an after the party listen. SY included.
Actually I hear and believe wires influence on sound. It's just that I attribute that to LCR, not "unknown" effects. As far as the NASA wire, I was just trying to understand why, with a fullrange, you didn't go straight from the amp to driver tabs with one continuous wire, rather than 2 different wires (and a rather impure/unaligned grains binding post) in series.
Nope, not the magic dots in Canada guy, Atlanta as in Georgia, USA. The Dave on the right.
I think that's GM on the left, sniffing the cone for dried saki. Come to think of it (short term memory failure again), maybe those weren't FE206ES-R's. I recall him saying something about custom made and dealing directly with a Japanese (Fostex?) engineer. As you can see, the ES-R's have a rising response. These didn't, with no filter (I think) in place.
I find the latest generation driver to be much better than the 800's. I could bring some custom versions of those too
.You're going to be changing to new wires again?
Not sure if I've been proven wrong as much as proven to have fuzzy memory of Fostex model numbers. There's actually another (DIY) event coming up at ESM in April that I will likely attend (very cool place, owner). I'll check the model number. As you can see in the pic, no whizzer, but a metal cap dome.
Like I said, if/when the DBT goes down, I'd be happy to bring over some CD's, though I actually keep my demo stuff right on the laptop. Same one I measure with
.cheers,
AJ
The YaccoCable stuff (from the burn in thread) had the right materials and geometry. I guess the price was wrong?
How about I rebrand them and sell them for $3500/ft. Your serious about wire customers would be satisfied with that sort of improvement, yes?
I'll call them WaccoCable.
Deal?
cheers,
AJ
Hi John, try this stuff
Van Den Hul - Thunderline. I did see you mention you liked their stuff previously. I think there may well be something to the mix of copper/carbon that mitigates problems due to pure metal conductors.
The link should provide you with some information on the cable geometry. I'm using it between a Monarchy Audio DAC & Classe pre amp & i'm quite happy
Obvously i'm using it balanced, though i believe it can be used single ended with phonos (as they mention). Not ridiculously expensive but a good performer..E2A:- I'm using the stuff with NS1000M (modified) speakers so i think i'd hear any nasties if they were there.
Bests
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Tom, wouldn't you have to hear the Arpeggios first, before deciding what they sound like?
In any case, if/when the DBT goes down, maybe I'll bring over a comparable (to Arpeggio) size bookshelf for an after the party listen. SY included.
Yes! I'd absolutely want to hear them first BEFORE deciding how they sound! How did you come to the mistaken conclusion that I decided how they would sound when I specifically said; "After reading all 3 pages in that thread. I believe these speakers should as opposed to would sound quite nice." I purposefully refrained from saying they do or they don't sound good for the very reason of not wanting to appear as if I'm describing how a speaker will sound that I haven't heard! I made an educated guess that the speakers should sound good based on:
- the driver used.
- the designer.
- two other people ---{Dave of Planet 10 & Scottmoose}--- whose opinions over time I've come to trust.
Based on those three criteria I believe they should sound nice. However unlike Terry J who apparently believes he capable of divining how a specific speaker will sound before hearing it:
- in the specific enclosure it's in.
- in the specific room it's in.
- with the specific components it's used with.
I know I cannot tell how any speaker will sound without hearing it under those three conditions. So until I've heard the Arpeggios first, for myself I'll have no idea how they will actually sound even if I believe they should sound nice.
I believe you're starting to pick at nits now. Forgive me for not being more specific. I'll make every attempt at being very specific in the future when conversing with you. I don't think there's anyone whether they be an objectivist or a subjectivist, who doesn't believe wires that have different LCR measurements won't sound different. I should have said; "I know you don't believe wires that measure very similar ---{I say similar because I doubt any two wires measure exactly the same}--- "should" influence the sound of a system.
There's actually a few good reasons for this happening they way it did.
- I'm not a woodworker, plus as you well know I'm disabled. So I had to have the speakers made for me. These were built for me by CarderSound of New Jersey. They were the ones who put the binding posts on the back of the speakers.
- I didn't know if the copper wires from NASA would be a sonic improvement over the internal wires or not. The wires were replaced a few days after the Fostex FE206E drivers were replaced with the FE206ES-R drivers on a whim. When Mike had the FE206ES-R drivers out for treatment I thought seeing as how the drivers were already out and I had the NASA wire, why not see if changing the internal wires made a sonic difference? Mike was nice enough to help me with this. The FE206ES-R drivers are heavy which requires one person to hold them while another person makes the connections on the back of the drivers. As Mike was coming back in a couple of days for another driver treatment, if I didn't like how the NASA wires sounded we could remove them. However after listening for a couple of days I decided the NASA wires were an sonic improvement and they were left in.
- I only have a small amount of the NASA wire. It's definitely not enough to run from the back of the drivers to my amplifier. I am going to see if my friend Paul will give me enough to try running them as speaker wires too.
- I don't know if having the binding posts inline causes enough of a sonic difference for me to hear. Darn AJ you acting as if you think I believe anything and everything causes a sonic difference! Let me give you the benefit of the doubt for now. AJ I'd like to inform you something you don't know about me, which is this; even if others claim to hear a difference in a certain tweak, unless I've tried and listened to that specific tweak for myself and heard a significant enough of a sonic difference to make me want to incorporate that tweak I don't! I don't care what others can or cannot hear! It's what I hear that matters to me. Now as I've never tried removing binding posts from any speaker and connecting the speaker wires directly to the speaker, I have no idea what type of difference it will or won't make. Besides why should I take the chance of marring a beautiful Rosewood veneered enclosure if I cannot hear when the binding post is inline or not? Even then if I did hear a difference it would have to be a sigificant enough sonic difference to make me want to pay someone to plug the hole removing the binding posts would leave and the way these binding posts are attached to the aluminium plate they're on, the hole they'll leave, if they're removed, won't be a small repair job.
OK, that answers my question.
They're definitely not FE206ES-R drivers. I should tell you I, as well as some others find the metal dome in the FF and F series to have a unique, characteristic sound. I disliked the sound of that metal dome so much I sold a pair of the F200A drivers because of that fact. In hindsight I realise I was a tad hasty doing so because they would have made nice drivers if I had used them only for the bass.
Concerning the FE206ES-R having a rising response that this driver didn't, what you're discovering is the well known differences between published specs and how Fostex drivers often sound sound and measure, when they're in installed in the proper enclosures for the specific Fostex driver being used! I can assure you my speakers don't sound like they have a rising response either. I'll also assure you I don't know how they measure either.
Please feel free to check every FF Series driver here at Fostex's own site. They all have a rising response. I'd be quite willing to bet that once we discover which drivers your friend is using ---{they're probably one of Fostex's S-R limited edition drivers but, maybe not}--- I'll wager Fostex's published specs of these drivers will show them to have a rising response as well! Full Range : FF Series - Speaker Components
I've never heard of Fostex making "custom" drivers for anyone before!!!???!! Perhaps what your friend Dave meant by "custom" is they were a version of a driver that's already being sold by Fostex, that's now being released as a limited edition, all out assault on the design? That's what the FE206ES-R is i.e., Fostex's "custom" limited edition version of the FE206E as their best effort of what can be done for that design.
I've been told but, I don't know if this is true or not but, supposedly when the S-R added like it's been added after the E on FE206E, it stands for Special-Restricted. Supposedly Fostex does this when they want to make, what amounts to their best all out effort at improving as much as possibly know how, a driver they already make! Which would essentially be special/custom, restricted/limited edition, driver. Perhaps you can ask your friend more about them and get the specific driver name?
I find the latest generation driver to be much better than the 800's. I could bring some custom versions of those too
Well as I haven't heard the latest generation driver I'll have to take your word on that. I know many people consider the more vintage Tannoy drivers to sound better than their latest generation drivers but, that said I have absolutely no idea of how vintage or whether the 800's or the latest generation driver sound's better. I'm quite content with what I own. It would take quite a speaker to make me want to change speakers!
If and when I change wires it would only be the speaker wires. Serguei Timachev from Stealth told me I could audtion the Dream speaker wires ---{with a security deposit of course}--- when I got the Stealth Sakra's to audtion. As I'm using Stealth M-21 Super power cords and Sakra ICs and love them both, it only makes sense to me I listen to their speaker wires too.
Yes it's definitely appears to be one the the FF series of drivers. I'll be curious as to which driver your friend is using.
Like I said, if/when the DBT goes down, I'd be happy to bring over some CD's, though I actually keep my demo stuff right on the laptop. Same one I measure with
The DBT with SY will happen unless SY changes his mind. That's a given but, I live in a manufactured home community and the parkings extremely limited and yes they do tow cars. When I have members of Central Florida Audio Society, Space Coast Audio Society and SETriodes Group over for listening sessions they carpool for that very reason.
I thought since you live in Tampa but, from your response it doesn't sound like you want to come unless it was when the DBT occured so now we'll just have to wait and see what happens. It's ok, no hard feelings, besides I'd have no way to access your laptop music through my system anyway.
Thetubeguy1954
~Rational Subjectivism. It's An Acquired Taste!~
c'mon TG, you've hurt me feelins two days in a row now!!
Didn't your mum ever tell you it's rude to talk about someone in the room with you as if they're not there??
Anyways, I was wrong when I guesstimated your drivers response as plus or minus 5 db, it looks at least plus or minus 7 db anywhere across the board.
http://www.madisound.com/pdf/fostexdrivers/fe206esr-rev.pdf
If it measures like a duck, honks like a duck then I (at least) am willing to bet it is a duck.
That is fine if you love ducks btw. Have no problem with it at all.
In one post you said they were fostex fe206R, then in another they were definitely not.
So that graph may or may not be correct????
Anyway Tom, you always seem willing to play the hurt and wounded card, so no more from me.
Looking forward to the test, good luck and hope your preparations for it allow you to do the test well.
Didn't your mum ever tell you it's rude to talk about someone in the room with you as if they're not there??
Anyways, I was wrong when I guesstimated your drivers response as plus or minus 5 db, it looks at least plus or minus 7 db anywhere across the board.
http://www.madisound.com/pdf/fostexdrivers/fe206esr-rev.pdf
If it measures like a duck, honks like a duck then I (at least) am willing to bet it is a duck.
That is fine if you love ducks btw. Have no problem with it at all.
In one post you said they were fostex fe206R, then in another they were definitely not.
So that graph may or may not be correct????
Anyway Tom, you always seem willing to play the hurt and wounded card, so no more from me.
Looking forward to the test, good luck and hope your preparations for it allow you to do the test well.
My brother brought over a pair of these to try, and although there was only about 24 hours of playing time on these new cables, I thought the midrange was done nicely.
1M Pair Industrial Valve Audio KV01 RCA Interconnects - eBay (item 220550162185 end time Mar-03-10 19:32:24 PST)
http://home.comcast.net/~jafix/interconnect.html
TG1954,
The EnABL process would have the same effect upon your treated drivers that it has on all drivers.
1.) Extended downward dynamics
2.) Removal of the last traces of "speaker" sound, leaving just music information
3.) Dispersal of the major resonance nodes on cone and whizzer.
4.) Extension of audibly uncompressed upper limits to dynamic range, without any artifacts to mark that extension beyond stock driver limits.
How much of this improvement the EnABL process would provide depends upon how much of those characteristics Mikes procedures cover. It is very typical for an EnABL'd driver to have greater than 110 db of crystal clear, coherent dynamic range, easily audible and accessible, no straining at all. That it is applied over Dave's proprietary processes without causing any diminishment in their benefits is very typical, the process is either beneficial or causes no changes at all. So far only two drivers have shown no change and one only relatively small improvements. So, if Mikes procedures bring perfection then EnABL would change nothing. If there was still room for improvement EnABL would provide it without altering what Mike had provided.
By now enough folks have heard EnABL'd systems to know that these claims are simple truth. Hopefully the EnABL process will excite others into experimenting and provide even better tools in the future. I certainly I am aware of one such investigation and assume there are, or will be, others. I welcome them.
Bud
The EnABL process would have the same effect upon your treated drivers that it has on all drivers.
1.) Extended downward dynamics
2.) Removal of the last traces of "speaker" sound, leaving just music information
3.) Dispersal of the major resonance nodes on cone and whizzer.
4.) Extension of audibly uncompressed upper limits to dynamic range, without any artifacts to mark that extension beyond stock driver limits.
How much of this improvement the EnABL process would provide depends upon how much of those characteristics Mikes procedures cover. It is very typical for an EnABL'd driver to have greater than 110 db of crystal clear, coherent dynamic range, easily audible and accessible, no straining at all. That it is applied over Dave's proprietary processes without causing any diminishment in their benefits is very typical, the process is either beneficial or causes no changes at all. So far only two drivers have shown no change and one only relatively small improvements. So, if Mikes procedures bring perfection then EnABL would change nothing. If there was still room for improvement EnABL would provide it without altering what Mike had provided.
By now enough folks have heard EnABL'd systems to know that these claims are simple truth. Hopefully the EnABL process will excite others into experimenting and provide even better tools in the future. I certainly I am aware of one such investigation and assume there are, or will be, others. I welcome them.
Bud
Wish I can get an offer like that.
These are my favourites for quite a while now, they need very long burn-in time though, when new I wasn't impressed.
legend
Now I begin to understand some of your expressed opinions - if you believe stuff like that!
Dross.
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