Banned
Joined 2002
Logic ? in what ? All you guys arguing who's cable is better and who thinks cables this and that ? its almost 6500 posts in this single thread. and its about CABLE What the FRIGG!!!
Congratulations! You've just won the most useless post of the thread award.
Or perhaps the opposite.
Banned
Joined 2002
Congratulations! You've just won the most useless post of the thread award.
REALLY WHOLY CRAP! will this get mailed to me or ? are you personally delivering it to me ? if so maybe bring some of this overpriced cable and stuff you all talk about.!
I attached it to the post already.
The thread is about cable differences, not cable prices, check again.
That`s the route between the poweramps trafo-outlets and all the way to the drivers inside your speakers.
I`m using this expression to make people see the picture. Some do.
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Well, you`re on the right track so far. Due to mathemathics or socalled science it`s all about area, massive or not, but that`s the theory.
Ever tryed out massive powercords? A cheap little experiment as long as you don`t burn down your house. Why do it make a difference? From what I know there is no research on this, but it do make a huge difference in a top system.
My 4-way bassreflex system outplays even big horn-systems when it comes to dynamics, leaving folks wondering. Huge massive all the way is a main reason
My 4-way bassreflex system outplays even big horn-systems when it comes to dynamics, leaving folks wondering. Huge massive all the way is a main reason
What do you mean by "massive", will you please quote the wire diameters that you use.
Well, starting from the start: double shielded 12awg powercables in, 12awg trafo primarys, (230V) 2x9awg/6,5mm out on 52V secondarys pr. channel.
Same (2x9awg pr. side) out to speakerterminals, right now I`m running 6ft 4x9awg (shielded) to the woofers + a 7awg I was planning to "uppgrade" with. Splitting it into monoamps would make things simpler but..
2x9awg to low mids and same to top.
Speakers internal wiring is at the same level, that includes the 8awg(4x3mm) 0-ohm trafocoil feeding the woofer. Minimalistic 1.order filter w. hudge powerhandling, asymertic cabinet w. no absorbers. All in beautiful boxes for high WAF
I always enjoy opening up a speaker that I had massive Kimber Silver cables or massive Oval Analysis cables hooked up to ... and find bargain basement 16 or 19 gauge zip cord wire throughout the speaker. Our old IMF transmission line monitors had 19 gauge copper clad hookup wire throughout even on the KEF B139 woofer. But those Kimbers sure made a difference in the sound. Or did they???
That speaker had excellent bass!!!
Or did they???That speaker had excellent bass!!!
Well, starting from the start: double shielded 12awg powercables in, 12awg trafo primarys, (230V) 2x9awg/6,5mm out on 52V secondarys pr. channel.
Same (2x9awg pr. side) out to speakerterminals, right now I`m running 6ft 4x9awg (shielded) to the woofers + a 7awg I was planning to "uppgrade" with. Splitting it into monoamps would make things simpler but..
2x9awg to low mids and same to top.
Thanks PaleRider.
OK some are "massive".
I agree on your powercables, for woofers I would suggest 12AWG perhaps down to 10AWG but for tops I think 12AWG to 14AWG are optimum. That's based on listening tests done on my system, I would like to know of other experiences.
Be aware that I have done a bit more testing on this than most others. And by testing I mean going all way out to check out what`s too much and what`s too little. Then between there you can find what`s enough.
Btw; for woofers on SS-amps anything less than 9awg is too tiny. Even 9awg is tiny if you don`t run mono-amps from right behind your speakers.
Rule nr.1: you can never get too muck area
Btw; for woofers on SS-amps anything less than 9awg is too tiny. Even 9awg is tiny if you don`t run mono-amps from right behind your speakers.
Rule nr.1: you can never get too muck area
To my experience, cables are behaving in a pretty predictable and scientific way , mostly at least.
Looking at loudspekaer cables, different designs have different properties to wich both the amp and the load may react upon.
I.e. looking at a speaker cable made of single leads, lets say 2 pcs. of 12 AWG solid core leads, then you can change their properties from being capacitive if twisted together, and inductive if kept apart. You power amp will react upon that, and it will changethe sound.
Capacitive loads can be said to resist changes in voltage, where inductive loads will try to resist changes in current.
To the ear this in an excagerated manner can expressed as if the capacitive load imposes a very quiet background also reffered to as black background, where the more inductive design often sounds as if the low level sounds are raised in volume. You can try this out yourself easily, by trying to twist a cable, and separate them afterwards. Some amplifiers will react more than others.
Of course you also have to consider the resistance in your cables, but beware that some speakers are damped effectively by their tuning, and do not really respond possitive to additional electrical damping. In the contrary, you´ll also find speakers which need lots of electrical damping from the amplifier.
A lot af talk about pureness of the copper or silver used in cables, but I think the best information about that is given here: http://www.copperinfo.co.uk/alloys/copper/homepage.shtml .
You´ll basically find 3 different types of copper, ETP, OFC and OFCHC, have look at link, and you´ll learn more.
Also the insulation has undergone various considerations, mostly about the electrical properties called dielectric absorbtion. Wich is benchmarked against air. The pointof this is, that you´ll always induce static loads to your insulation which will inevitable return to the lead inside the cable. When this happens a small echo will occur, you can read more about this here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permittivity
Then both the core/s and the insulation also have mechanical properties which often tends to be overlooked. If you have a solid core @ 12 AWG isolated with teflon, thentry to knock its surface with a pencil og so, you´ll experience that it resonates quite much. If alowed to do so, you must realize, that your cable will have dynamic electrical properties as a consequence of the mechanical ones. On the contrary you could try the same experiment with a multicore 12 AWG cable with foamy polyethylen as insulation, the result will be non resonant.
Besides the mechanical induced vibration form music itself, also magnetics has a part in this game. Leads will tend to either attract or repell each other as a consequence of magnetic fields around the cable, and also the cables surroundings.
Skineffect is also often mentioned, you can study its relevanse here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect .
Some makes also enhance their great effort in achieving very high propagation speeds, I wouldn´t worry much about that, as it is normally only a problem when talking about radar signals @ MHz range in i.e. airports where the radar transmitter, because of health reasons, is placed far from the controlrooms, inducing offset to the actual position of airplanes and landing lanes.
More can be read here http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...xrmJAw&usg=AFQjCNEgzQf5unrMb61I271TgzgXX4dR4Q
Audio cable makers often brand themselves by taking a few of these properties and take them to the extreme, claiming this to be the way to do it right. Nord Ost is i.e. a make, where the capacitance is very low at the cost of inductance, this way trying to enhance low level detail. MIT i.e. are in the contrary a make, where inductance is somewhat lower than i.e. NO, but at the cost of higher capacitance, giving them their pronounced "black background". Just to mention a few makes and a few sonic differences.
Cables like that can IMHO only be used to take synergy into your system. I think none of them are right, they do what they do, and then you like it or not.
The marketing departments often owerflows with superlatives about the science and space technology put into their products, and pricing as such will soon follow. If we want them or not, is our choise, but I do recommend to build up a reference with which uoy always compare cables. This does not have to be a world class reference set, just some good sound cables from reliable and well estimed makers doing their job well. I.e. Canare LV77 as coax or their starquad types for ballanced and i.e. also their starquad speakercable @ 4*14 AWG.
Try then to replace all cables simultaniously and listen, and remember to reverse this many times. That will give you an excellent picture of what the IRL differences are, and also about th magnitude.
Just my 5 cents
Looking at loudspekaer cables, different designs have different properties to wich both the amp and the load may react upon.
I.e. looking at a speaker cable made of single leads, lets say 2 pcs. of 12 AWG solid core leads, then you can change their properties from being capacitive if twisted together, and inductive if kept apart. You power amp will react upon that, and it will changethe sound.
Capacitive loads can be said to resist changes in voltage, where inductive loads will try to resist changes in current.
To the ear this in an excagerated manner can expressed as if the capacitive load imposes a very quiet background also reffered to as black background, where the more inductive design often sounds as if the low level sounds are raised in volume. You can try this out yourself easily, by trying to twist a cable, and separate them afterwards. Some amplifiers will react more than others.
Of course you also have to consider the resistance in your cables, but beware that some speakers are damped effectively by their tuning, and do not really respond possitive to additional electrical damping. In the contrary, you´ll also find speakers which need lots of electrical damping from the amplifier.
A lot af talk about pureness of the copper or silver used in cables, but I think the best information about that is given here: http://www.copperinfo.co.uk/alloys/copper/homepage.shtml .
You´ll basically find 3 different types of copper, ETP, OFC and OFCHC, have look at link, and you´ll learn more.
Also the insulation has undergone various considerations, mostly about the electrical properties called dielectric absorbtion. Wich is benchmarked against air. The pointof this is, that you´ll always induce static loads to your insulation which will inevitable return to the lead inside the cable. When this happens a small echo will occur, you can read more about this here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permittivity
Then both the core/s and the insulation also have mechanical properties which often tends to be overlooked. If you have a solid core @ 12 AWG isolated with teflon, thentry to knock its surface with a pencil og so, you´ll experience that it resonates quite much. If alowed to do so, you must realize, that your cable will have dynamic electrical properties as a consequence of the mechanical ones. On the contrary you could try the same experiment with a multicore 12 AWG cable with foamy polyethylen as insulation, the result will be non resonant.
Besides the mechanical induced vibration form music itself, also magnetics has a part in this game. Leads will tend to either attract or repell each other as a consequence of magnetic fields around the cable, and also the cables surroundings.
Skineffect is also often mentioned, you can study its relevanse here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect .
Some makes also enhance their great effort in achieving very high propagation speeds, I wouldn´t worry much about that, as it is normally only a problem when talking about radar signals @ MHz range in i.e. airports where the radar transmitter, because of health reasons, is placed far from the controlrooms, inducing offset to the actual position of airplanes and landing lanes.
More can be read here http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...xrmJAw&usg=AFQjCNEgzQf5unrMb61I271TgzgXX4dR4Q
Audio cable makers often brand themselves by taking a few of these properties and take them to the extreme, claiming this to be the way to do it right. Nord Ost is i.e. a make, where the capacitance is very low at the cost of inductance, this way trying to enhance low level detail. MIT i.e. are in the contrary a make, where inductance is somewhat lower than i.e. NO, but at the cost of higher capacitance, giving them their pronounced "black background". Just to mention a few makes and a few sonic differences.
Cables like that can IMHO only be used to take synergy into your system. I think none of them are right, they do what they do, and then you like it or not.
The marketing departments often owerflows with superlatives about the science and space technology put into their products, and pricing as such will soon follow. If we want them or not, is our choise, but I do recommend to build up a reference with which uoy always compare cables. This does not have to be a world class reference set, just some good sound cables from reliable and well estimed makers doing their job well. I.e. Canare LV77 as coax or their starquad types for ballanced and i.e. also their starquad speakercable @ 4*14 AWG.
Try then to replace all cables simultaniously and listen, and remember to reverse this many times. That will give you an excellent picture of what the IRL differences are, and also about th magnitude.
Just my 5 cents
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