That sounds about right but, as with the "20dB" stuff that Passion presented before, we need to look at scale. For a typical run of speaker cable (let's say 5m), the total loop resistance is about 45m-ohm. So the 35% increase at 20kHz means about 60m-ohm. Let's say your speakers are beautiful 8R loads. Then this translates into slightly less than a 0.02dB error at 20kHz. The audibility of that is highly questionable.
You might argue, "But speakers aren't beautiful 8R loads!" And you'd be right. Although my speakers have a pretty flat impedance characteristic stretching up to the bat-ear portion of the spectrum, most speakers show a rising impedance in the top octave or two. However, that actually reduces the error, from negligible to nearly non-existent.
So I think the whole "rising impedance" thing about thick wire doesn't withstand basic analysis.
Strange that different people can describe the same soundstage, this give a whole new meaning to imagination, imagine.Because they did not listen.
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yes...alike our eyes convergence let us evaluate distance
volume differences may let us evaluate spacial position of some instruments....and people can do that almost the same way.... this has consistence Visser... you are right.
But you will find a guy that perceive an orchestra in different high levels... alike some guys playng first floor and others playng second floor and so on.
I know a cable listener that guarantees he can listen that....maybe also viruses conversation and electrons fart too.
regards,
Carlos
volume differences may let us evaluate spacial position of some instruments....and people can do that almost the same way.... this has consistence Visser... you are right.
But you will find a guy that perceive an orchestra in different high levels... alike some guys playng first floor and others playng second floor and so on.
I know a cable listener that guarantees he can listen that....maybe also viruses conversation and electrons fart too.
regards,
Carlos
Speakers present a complex dynamic load, looking only at resistance and FR will surely hide any possible effects of cables. The differences I hear are not related to FR but the quality of the HF audio signals, they start to sound dull and distorted to me.
Then we must look past basic analysis.
What about relative phase between channels?
Carlos, first it is important to get the system to reproduce all these small spatial clues correctly, then your brain can and will start to make sense of the 'noise' that are thrown at it. Do you realise that the brain can detect time variations of 1uS?
That IS the dynamic part. The graphs of differences correspond exactly to what the impedance predicts.
I think where you're getting confused is thinking of the inductance of a speaker as being somehow different than the inductance of a coil that isn't moving. It's not. The only difference between a speaker load and a set of coils and capacitors with the same impedance is that some parts of the speaker's impedance can vary slowly with time (on the order of seconds to minutes) as they heat up.
Curly you must try it once, take two lengths of lamp cord, tell yourself it is the best speakercable ever made, take a mouthfull of brandy, repeat until you believe it, then go and listen.
Ps. Just remember to repeat this every time before you listen again.
Andre,
That was funny
I do not mean to antagonize though. I just would like a fair playing field. I acknowledge that I lack the knowledge to determine what I hear, but why must I tell myself that I can not or do not hear what I hear? Or anyone else for that matter?I go to great lengths to "see" if there are differences when I change anything in my system. I am not talking about frequency range improvements. I am looking for more "transparency" from my system, to allow the recordings, to expose every last iota of what is buried in them. I do not know what else to call what I am looking for. I am simply trying to extract as much of the nuances of the recordings to help me connect on a more emotional level with them. If that sounds like audiophile speak, I do not know how to state it any more clearly. I could care less about cost (well with in what I can afford of course). My goal is a sound that moves me on an emotional level, in my system. Now granted my equipment is not cheap either, but it is far from ultra crazy expensive either.
I have heard cabling that cost far more than what I currently use that did not bring me any more pleasure, in my system. I truly do not believe that I am price conscious when I evaluate anything in my system. I am not a rich man, but like many that have expensive hobbies in this world, audio is mine. I own no boats, exotic cars, antique cars, etc. This is my soul vice (well woodworking too, but that is cheap compared to audio).
I think doubts about the one is better can be solved using A to B comparison.
.. also if there's a better sound cable..if this exists..well this can be tested..and one method suggested is this one posted here... there are others, of course.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1936979
regards,
Carlos
.. also if there's a better sound cable..if this exists..well this can be tested..and one method suggested is this one posted here... there are others, of course.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1936979
regards,
Carlos
Except that inductors are not normally moving in and out of a magnetic feild
Of course any effects that different cables would have over the "dealing with" this back emf I have no comment on, as I have only just looked at this thread for the first time (I think), and I'm not going to read the whole thing (and I really can't see a cable of any sort making any difference in this regard (ie the dealing with back emf) , the amplifier that the speaker is connected to I would think would have a far greater effect...
I could waffle on about skin effect, OFC and all sorts of things I really know nothing about just to fit in, but I shall refrain, and just simply say that I bought some OFC (probably 16gauge) speaker cables that probably cost around $2.50 / meter (my speaker runs are probably no more than 2.5M each) and have never thought about using anything else... Why did I buy OFC? Because I couldn't see that it would hurt, and it wasn't that much more expensive than standard old copper... Besides the inadequacies in the rest of my system are far greater than any speaker cables could possibly make up for.
I will say though that I had some interconnects that "went bad".. I thought my CD player had developed some hideous fault, and it turned out to be the interconnects! Not sure what happened to them but it sounded completely horrid, and I'm talking about changes that would render speach completely uninteligible! funny thing was it tested ok (resistance wise) on the multimeter... Unfortunately I threw it in the bin.
Tony. / who has had a couple of red's tonight...
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I don't know what you mean by "scary results." Can you give me some specific data or cites where a tweeter's inductance (you were talking about the top octave) causes any different effect than the RCL equivalent circuit?
Andre,
That was funny
You don't understand, they claim you can only hear what your brain want you to hear, so just convince yourself that everything sound the same and save yourself a lot of money, if you don't like talking to yourself you can just drink the brandy, it should still work.
I actually agree with "the science types"
the problem is that most people (not talking about anybody here of course 
) never trained themselves to really listen, they don't care or have a clue what real instruments sound like, let alone what can be achieved by a good system so obviously they would look at the price, brand, size or anything else to try and define it's quality. I know, I was there also, always concerned about what other people say about a piece of equipment. Once you learn and know what you expect to hear from a system, these influences become unimportant, then you are not influenced by orange speaker cable any more.
Negative!...there are several folks in this forum trained to listen
people highly skilled..people with deep knowledge.... i am one that is trained since the sixties, also in Audio recording studios and in television studios.
All i did in my whole life was study audio and to test differences,I have studied audio in technical level, also i went to the college to study Electronics (not finished) and Psychology of perception and also i had spent a year in Tokyo - Sony Professional audio in Japan.. studying audio.... and i think i have background and know how enought to be considered trained to listen and evaluate audio while listening.. i am doing that those 48 years long... even a menthally retarded guy, doing that during 48 years will be good to evaluate differences..if they exist.... if not entirelly retarded will be much more able to perceive differences.
Certificates and degrees about electronics, repairs, service, preventive and corrective maintenance, in audio, video and Radio frequency i have several, to fill a couple of room walls..so...to evaluate, compare, i am good enougth to detect differences if they really exist.
I have tested those cables, long years ago and last year too..i have called people to evaluate, to compare and to detect..no one has detected absolutelly nothing.... so...please...do not force our patience with that Visser.
I do not perceive difference in cables... and others does not perceive too, because differences in cable sonics does not exist..this is like simple like that... also measurements does not show reasons to believe they may sound.
We just do not delirate... or let fashion or high price things fool us.
regards,
Carlos
people highly skilled..people with deep knowledge.... i am one that is trained since the sixties, also in Audio recording studios and in television studios.
All i did in my whole life was study audio and to test differences,I have studied audio in technical level, also i went to the college to study Electronics (not finished) and Psychology of perception and also i had spent a year in Tokyo - Sony Professional audio in Japan.. studying audio.... and i think i have background and know how enought to be considered trained to listen and evaluate audio while listening.. i am doing that those 48 years long... even a menthally retarded guy, doing that during 48 years will be good to evaluate differences..if they exist.... if not entirelly retarded will be much more able to perceive differences.
Certificates and degrees about electronics, repairs, service, preventive and corrective maintenance, in audio, video and Radio frequency i have several, to fill a couple of room walls..so...to evaluate, compare, i am good enougth to detect differences if they really exist.
I have tested those cables, long years ago and last year too..i have called people to evaluate, to compare and to detect..no one has detected absolutelly nothing.... so...please...do not force our patience with that Visser.
I do not perceive difference in cables... and others does not perceive too, because differences in cable sonics does not exist..this is like simple like that... also measurements does not show reasons to believe they may sound.
We just do not delirate... or let fashion or high price things fool us.
regards,
Carlos
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I actually agree with "the science types"
Yeah you are influenced by your expectations when you "know what to expect". And here we go again making broad generalizations about the hearing ability of one side of the argument.
You say in one sentence that we shouldn't care what other people think after telling us that we don't know what to listen for and then procede to say we need to learn what to expect from a system. What is it? So my 18 years or so of experimenting with recording and composing on accoustic instruments doesn't give me any qualification to judge what real instruments should sound like? Anything else you want to assume about people who don't agree with you and hearing?
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