No doubts John that envelopes and their intermodulations with musical sounds cause distortions which spectra are not arithmetically related to multiplications of their fundamental frequencies by integers. For instance, why I decided to replace internals of MXL-770 microphones, because it was too well audible how envelopes, especially of sibilant sounds, intermodulated with them causing harsh unnatural sounds that were remotely close to sounds of small peaces of a broken glass.
No, Jan, this does not concern you. Scott is personal friends with Dick Sequerra, but he never asks the important questions, and Dick lets him stay in the dark. You should hear my discussions with Dick Sequerra, they would be completely alien to Scott, at this juncture. However, I am on the path of enlightenment, so my questions are answered by people with more experience than me in specific areas.
The hear no difference, measure no difference crowd are going to have a different dialogue with someone like Dick Sequerra. It just isn't worth it to him to bang his head against the crowd, and he chides me about wasting my time with dialogue on line, when I could be doing something moreuseful.
But it does concern me, and Bob, and Edmond and Syn08 and Wavebourn and Scott and a slew (no pun intended) of other people, who hear you go on about inharmonic generation without telling us how and why. It's maddening! We ALL want to know!
Just post Dicks number and we all can give him a call. Unless he can post his reasoning here? I mean, he's not AFRAID of us, is he?
jd
Give me that $10,000 and I will send you a record of remains of a snare sound, after nulling-out the original signal.
John;
we are going in circles because you keep ignoring what people are saying right on target, and the single thing we can learn from you is how to avoid direct answers referring in circles to something out of the scope of the discussion. I.e. how to contribute to prolonging the discussion without adding any meaning to it's content.
Can you give us some clue how that mechanism would work? I guess the envelope has a spectrum?
jd
So, he (through his proxy, you) tells us something, and then if we ask him why or how, he 'doesn't think too much of us'? Is he really such an antisocial, mean, frustrated and cowardly person? If so, why don't then YOU tell us? I mean, you're privvy to his most intimate thoughts, surely you are authorized to share his deep thoughts with us? Give us a break!
jd
Sure it does. That's the point.
Any music has more of frequencies than fundamental frequencies of sounds and their harmonics. Sounds have attack and decay; even when you take as an example a sinusoidal signal it has wide specter, because the sinusoidal signal has both start and end.
However, John commanded to stop talking about microphones, because it was the explanation, right on the target, without involvements of his friends and papers.
So, I am silent from now, in this thread, until some technical discussion will be allowed.
Sure it does. That's the point.
Any music has more of frequencies than fundamental frequencies of sounds and their harmonics. Saounds hav attack and decay; even when you take as an example a sinusoidal signal it has wide specter, because the sinusoidal signal has both start and end.
However, John commanded to stop talking about microphones, because it was the explanation, right on the target, without involvements of his friends and papers.
So, I am silent from now, in this thread, until some technical discussion will be allowed.
No no Anatoliy, not so fast!
Ok I think I see what you mean. But what I would think is that at any moment, be it the attack phase of a tone or the sustain or the decay phase, there is 'a' spectrum, that intermodulates to give IM and HD products. (I assume that we agree that IM products are not considered inharmonic products). So even if the spectrum changes continuously, at any moment in time all IM products can be deduced from the spectrum at that time, no?
jd
No no Anatoliy, not so fast!
Ok I think I see what you mean. But what I would think is that at any moment, be it the attack phase of a tone or the sustain or the decay phase, there is 'a' spectrum, that intermodulates to give IM and HD products. (I assume that we agree that IM products are not considered inharmonic products). So even if the spectrum changes continuously, at any moment in time all IM products can be deduced from the spectrum at that time, no?
Theoretically, yes. Practically, you'll hear and measure a garbage added. I don't remember exactly who, probably Demian, suggested to listen to residues of nulling out to decide how do you like such distortions, and what do you hear in them.
Ok, I'm silent now. The idea had been presented, now it is up to John, either to chew it thoroughly, or to spit out, going back to mysteries of friends and papers.
You might have noticed that we ALL care. We ALL would like you to lift the veil. I really wish you would. I mean, even if Mitch or Dick would suffer from social anxiety disorder, they could just DICTATE it to you, no? They DO speak English, no?
jd
Well, if you wait for John to explain anything, you'll need cryogenic longevity treatment
Anyway, I don't get how you can deduce from hearing 'garbage added' that it is inharmonic? If you can measure it, it would be easy to unravel the spectrum and answer the question once and for all. That would be a relief!
jd
No, Jan, this does not concern you. Scott is personal friends with Dick Sequerra, but he never asks the important questions, and Dick lets him stay in the dark. You should hear my discussions with Dick Sequerra, they would be completely alien to Scott, at this juncture. However, I am on the path of enlightenment, so my questions are answered by people with more experience than me in specific areas.
The hear no difference, measure no difference crowd are going to have a different dialogue with someone like Dick Sequerra. It just isn't worth it to him to bang his head against the crowd, and he chides me about wasting my time with dialogue on line, when I could be doing something more
Hi John,
Will Dick be at RMAF? I'd enjoy a live talk among the three of us.
BTW I do not consider myself to be among the "hear no difference, measure no difference crowd". I believe that there certainly can be differences that are heard that cannot be accounted for by measurements. However, I am intensely interested in seeing if there is a way to trace those differences back to some cause that we can all understand and learn from. Sometimes we may not be measuring the right thing under the right conditions.
Cheers,
Bob
Anyway, I don't get how you can deduce from hearing 'garbage added' that it is inharmonic? If you can measure it, it would be easy to unravel the spectrum and answer the question once and for all. That would be a relief!
Ok, since John left let's talk some technical things.
You can measure it. But you can't command the sound to stay still while you measure it, but if it is still you have nothing to measure.
The relief is, when I see stiff like a rock powering voltages in wide frequency band; when there is no infra-sound oscillations when the signal is suddenly applied; when bandwidth and linearity of each stage greatly exceeds so called "band of audibility", and so on.
I go for a clean sound. It is not my hobby to sell distortion measurements.
Hi Anatoliy, Bob and Scott,
Thank you all for setting me straight on this. Now, is what John was doing going to produce an SSB signal? In other words, what was John seeing?
Hi John,
Will you please confirm your test setup?
-Chris
Well, possibly to a commercial radio engineer or technician. Certainly I have never once seen anything like this - ever. However, I will accept that this is true and thank you for the information. I don't see how a technician or engineer would see this when dealing with normal consumer entertainment radio (AM or FM). Something would have to be pretty broken for this to occur. I'm sure you will agree that what you are talking about is a specialized application.
Yes, I did. A couple times in fact.
Given that a feedback network is a linear network, it cannot create anything (which is my point). I suspect that you meant that these things occur as a result of global, negative feedback being applied. But any of these effects must occur in the forward gain path as that is the only place where non-linearity can exist. I am assuming that the resistors used in the feedback network are not defective (ie they are linear in all respects).
I don't recall, or didn't get the gist of what you were getting at. In any event, I'll accept this as fact. It's news to me and I just learned something.
That is true, and I will suggest that the device is being so misused that it is no longer anything even close to a linear system. But there is so much garbage coming out that perhaps another example might be better to talk about. Something that is still operating linearly for the most part.
Yes, I agree with the last part.
Thank you all for setting me straight on this. Now, is what John was doing going to produce an SSB signal? In other words, what was John seeing?
Hi John,
Will you please confirm your test setup?
-Chris
- Status
- Not open for further replies.