Don't worry, it's just more of Wayne's pathetic Tom bashing, he's been going on for years. I'm not sure Wayne has ever measured anything, I think he does all his tuning by ear!
With such small cone excursion I doubt there is even a mechanism that can produce high levels of THD in a tapped horn.
Cheers
William Cowan
With such small cone excursion I doubt there is even a mechanism that can produce high levels of THD in a tapped horn.
Cheers
William Cowan
Hi William, all
Well at least he is posting his opinions under his own name now, just before Christmas, he was caught posting his attacks under multiple names on Pro-sound web and on his forum.
After being challenged by the moderators and then unable / unwilling to prove that he and several other people were separate entities, he was exposed and banished.
Apparently also none of the people who had challenged him or refuted his crud can post on his forum now and he has gone back to remove some of the harsher sock puppet posts in question on his own forum.
While the “multi name troll” thread where it really “hit the fan” has been removed from PSW, one of the lead ups, which triggered that one, is still in the PSW archives.
http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/25972/274554/0/
Here the posters on Pro-sound named “Mike Talbot”, “Wayne” and “Grant Rider” turned out to be Wayne or at least all three had used the same computer. The next PSW thread triggered by this one "Multi-name Trolls" took off with many thousand hits.
On his forum;
http://www.audioroundtable.com/ProSpeakers/
The incredulously phrased "butt covering" notice by Daemon (moderator’s name on Wayne’s forum) marks where about a page of attacks and refuting posts where removed, 99 bottles, Grant Rider, Mike Talbot and Wayne (and Daemon probably) were also apparently the same person, the same person with a real axes to grind apparently
I guess if you have multiple identities and you’re the moderator too, you can shape what appears to suit your desired reality.
After attacking the Unity horn principals, copying the Lab sub’s driver / design approach after slamming it and now his on going personal jihad against the Tapped horn, I have even less patience for noises from “Wayne’s World”.
As you pose, reducing a drivers excursion with an acoustic load reduces distortion for a given size cabinet and SPL, this is what you hear in a side by side comparison with our competitors boxes.
How are your Unity horns these days?, I wish I could do a DIY project like that again.
Best,
Tom
Well at least he is posting his opinions under his own name now, just before Christmas, he was caught posting his attacks under multiple names on Pro-sound web and on his forum.
After being challenged by the moderators and then unable / unwilling to prove that he and several other people were separate entities, he was exposed and banished.
Apparently also none of the people who had challenged him or refuted his crud can post on his forum now and he has gone back to remove some of the harsher sock puppet posts in question on his own forum.
While the “multi name troll” thread where it really “hit the fan” has been removed from PSW, one of the lead ups, which triggered that one, is still in the PSW archives.
http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/25972/274554/0/
Here the posters on Pro-sound named “Mike Talbot”, “Wayne” and “Grant Rider” turned out to be Wayne or at least all three had used the same computer. The next PSW thread triggered by this one "Multi-name Trolls" took off with many thousand hits.
On his forum;
http://www.audioroundtable.com/ProSpeakers/
The incredulously phrased "butt covering" notice by Daemon (moderator’s name on Wayne’s forum) marks where about a page of attacks and refuting posts where removed, 99 bottles, Grant Rider, Mike Talbot and Wayne (and Daemon probably) were also apparently the same person, the same person with a real axes to grind apparently
I guess if you have multiple identities and you’re the moderator too, you can shape what appears to suit your desired reality.
After attacking the Unity horn principals, copying the Lab sub’s driver / design approach after slamming it and now his on going personal jihad against the Tapped horn, I have even less patience for noises from “Wayne’s World”.
As you pose, reducing a drivers excursion with an acoustic load reduces distortion for a given size cabinet and SPL, this is what you hear in a side by side comparison with our competitors boxes.
How are your Unity horns these days?, I wish I could do a DIY project like that again.
Best,
Tom
G'day Tom
Still loving the Unities. I'm committed now, they're built in! Have a look at http://www.cowanaudio.com and click on "Unity, the finale". You thought my last pair of speakers with these horns looked good. Well the wife likes these even more! ( They sound excellent, too!)
I've been playing around with some Unity ideas for the workshop system. A pair of 18 Sound 6ND410 per horn and a 4550 look like a marriage made in heaven in a 150-200Hz horn. Still playing with AkAbak models, will make same saw dust soon. The room is a concrete bunker so the directivity will be beneficial.
Better get this back on topic. Do you have any thoughts on the apparent acoustic source and expansion of the wavefront in a tapped horn wrt measured output at distance compared to a Vented Box? This was the topic of some heated discussion a page or two back in this thread.
Wayne needs to realise his success is based on the quality of his product and it's marketing, not some relentless attack on the guys at the top.
All the best...
William Cowan
Still loving the Unities. I'm committed now, they're built in! Have a look at http://www.cowanaudio.com and click on "Unity, the finale". You thought my last pair of speakers with these horns looked good. Well the wife likes these even more! ( They sound excellent, too!)
I've been playing around with some Unity ideas for the workshop system. A pair of 18 Sound 6ND410 per horn and a 4550 look like a marriage made in heaven in a 150-200Hz horn. Still playing with AkAbak models, will make same saw dust soon. The room is a concrete bunker so the directivity will be beneficial.
Better get this back on topic. Do you have any thoughts on the apparent acoustic source and expansion of the wavefront in a tapped horn wrt measured output at distance compared to a Vented Box? This was the topic of some heated discussion a page or two back in this thread.
Wayne needs to realise his success is based on the quality of his product and it's marketing, not some relentless attack on the guys at the top.
All the best...
William Cowan
So do I! It would get a lot of interest I think. Still kicking myself for not buying a set when I could. Sometimes procrastination isn't such a good thing.Tom Danley said:
I have built LABs and used them in my living room, and will do a TH soon also (work, school and worskshop time issues) to replace them in these smaller digs.
Cheers
Hi guys, quite a newbie here. Im trying to design a tapped horn based on Elemental Designs' 13Kv.2 driver. Have tried many combination of throat and mouth length and the most optimum I have arrived to so far is this:
3.5" throat; 7" mouth
Quite a peak on 73Hz@100.52dB and a dip on 47Hz@96.76dB. Difference between the peak and the dip is about 3.76dB.
What is the effect of this peak on the perceived bass? Will this be felt as thump on the chest?
Driver specs (Elemental Designs 13Kv.2):
Qts: .31
Qes: .35
Qms: 3.33
Fs: 21.5 Hz
Re: 3.7
Vas: 162 L
Mms: 142 g
Bl: 15 T*m
SPL: 88.47 dB
Sd: 545 cm^2
Xmax: 15.1 mm
Voice Coil: 50 mm
3.5" throat; 7" mouth
Quite a peak on 73Hz@100.52dB and a dip on 47Hz@96.76dB. Difference between the peak and the dip is about 3.76dB.
What is the effect of this peak on the perceived bass? Will this be felt as thump on the chest?
Driver specs (Elemental Designs 13Kv.2):
Qts: .31
Qes: .35
Qms: 3.33
Fs: 21.5 Hz
Re: 3.7
Vas: 162 L
Mms: 142 g
Bl: 15 T*m
SPL: 88.47 dB
Sd: 545 cm^2
Xmax: 15.1 mm
Voice Coil: 50 mm
Attachments
Tom's rant
Here we go with Tom Danley bashing me, saying I'm bashing him.
I've never posted using any name but my own. I suppose you'll say I am Ian and the others that question your ideas here. Funny how you would make it out as some big conspiracy, when the only thing at issue is technical details. How 'bout you stick to the facts instead of making it personal for a change?
I guess when the facts start to turn against you, maybe it is tempting to try and impeach the character of your "opponent". I'd say that goes to show something of your own character, Tom.
People are questioning the quality of response and the amount of distortion. You wouldn't bring on of your TH115 or TH-215 boxes out to be measured at the Prosound Shootouts in 2005, 2006 or 2007, where we did very accurate measurements outdoors. But your own employee did measurements at other shootouts, and the distortion of your TH115 and TH215 was pretty high compared to everything else. I'm not the only one that noticed this.
Here we go with Tom Danley bashing me, saying I'm bashing him.
I've never posted using any name but my own. I suppose you'll say I am Ian and the others that question your ideas here. Funny how you would make it out as some big conspiracy, when the only thing at issue is technical details. How 'bout you stick to the facts instead of making it personal for a change?
I guess when the facts start to turn against you, maybe it is tempting to try and impeach the character of your "opponent". I'd say that goes to show something of your own character, Tom.
People are questioning the quality of response and the amount of distortion. You wouldn't bring on of your TH115 or TH-215 boxes out to be measured at the Prosound Shootouts in 2005, 2006 or 2007, where we did very accurate measurements outdoors. But your own employee did measurements at other shootouts, and the distortion of your TH115 and TH215 was pretty high compared to everything else. I'm not the only one that noticed this.
cowanaudio said:
There's no free lunch.
We agree that tapped horns play lower than a conventional horn of the same size. This is because the output from the back side of the woofer is increasing output by as much as six db. But a conventional horn doesn't unload; we should expect a tapped horn would.
Therefore, it doesn't surprise me that software predictions of tapped horn distortion show higher amounts than a horn of the same size.
But who cares? Buy a subsonic filter and the problem is solved.
This is practically the same debate as "sealed vs ported." You could argue this one till you're blue in the face.
Like ported boxes, tapped horns have higher efficiency, but you have to take into account their behavior at subsonic frequencies.
threadlock said:
Greets!
Hmm, I'm a bit confused, how did you manage to make S1 > S2?
Anyway, you can add inductance (Le) to smooth the plot a bit and between our hearing acuity down low being what it is and the room's effect on the response you'll probably be hard pressed to even notice < +/- 3 dB in-room, so < +/- 2 dB is pretty good.
FWIW, here's my 'take' on this driver with 27 V to reach Xmax in 1/4 space and 5 mH total to smooth it:
GM
Attachments
djk said:Def_Driver '3015LF'
Sd=881cm2
fs=42Hz
Qes=0.41
Qms=6.82
Vas=160L
Re=5.31ohm
Le=0.92mH
System 'S1'
Driver 'D1' Def='3015LF' Node=1=0=20=21
Waveguide 'W1' Node=20=21
STh=750cm2 SMo=2200cm2
Vf=10L Len=2.5m T=0.9
Horn 'W2' Node=21
STh=2200cm2 SMo=2444cm2
Len=35cm Conical
System 'S3'
Driver 'D1' Def='3015LF' Node=1=0=20=21
Driver 'D2' Def='3015LF' Node=1=0=20=21
Driver 'D3' Def='3015LF' Node=1=0=20=21
Driver 'D4' Def='3015LF' Node=1=0=20=21
Waveguide 'W1' Node=20=21
STh=3000cm2 SMo=8800cm2
Vf=40L Len=2.5m T=0.9
Horn 'W2' Node=21
STh=8800cm2 SMo=.9776m2
Len=35cm Conical
Four in half space (±1dB 32hz~140hz, 113dB/2.83V/1M), bigger throat, smaller mouth, about the same length. Increasing Vf to 15L brings up the 50hz~60hz region a fraction of a dB, but starts killing the response above 100hz.
How does this design posted by djk compare with what Don is building (layout attached)?
Attachments
Hi guys.
I measured the first of my tapped horns with B&C 15PS100 and it looks like hornresponse does a very good job.
Measuring was done in quaterspace (floor+ one wall).
rising response @70Hz, dropping @100Hz and peak @170Hz and 280Hz were predicted with hornresponse.
It´s "only" going down to 30Hz but the B&C is brand new an needs some burn in.
simulation and response can be seen here:
http://www.miwis-bastelbu.de/Galerien/quattrostagioni/index.html
Thank you David, your hornresponse is a real gift for us DIY-people !
Michael
I measured the first of my tapped horns with B&C 15PS100 and it looks like hornresponse does a very good job.
Measuring was done in quaterspace (floor+ one wall).
rising response @70Hz, dropping @100Hz and peak @170Hz and 280Hz were predicted with hornresponse.
It´s "only" going down to 30Hz but the B&C is brand new an needs some burn in.
simulation and response can be seen here:
http://www.miwis-bastelbu.de/Galerien/quattrostagioni/index.html
Thank you David, your hornresponse is a real gift for us DIY-people !
Michael
Patrick Bateman said:
The "ideal" driver for a tapped horn has a much stiffer suspension which typically means the Fr is above the horn cutoff -- ideally it would end up with similar total stiffness to the suspension+air stiffness for a conventional horn with a rear chamber.
In this case the excursion below horn cutoff would be similar for conventional and tapped horns.
However it's not easy to find drivers with high Xmax and stiff enough suspension, because no other type of enclosure (apart from a tapped horn) needs this -- even the Peerless XXLS automotive driver which William found was ideal for many tapped horns (Fs was almost 50Hz) has been deleted from the DST catalogue.
And I guess things will stay this way (at least for standard rather than custom drivers) unless lots of manufacturers licence Danley tapped horn technology. I'm pretty sure Tom has customised drivers made with reduced compliance, but since these are OEM designs they're not available to us amateurs :-(
Incidentally, even though it's probably not available (boo hoo) I had a look at the new PASUB PA390, and it would make one *hell* of a tapped horn driver...
http://pasub.com/PASUB390.pdf
Ian
P.S. Anybody fancy trying to set up a group buy for it?
P.P.S. I wonder if it's inside Tom's new "monster" tapped horn?
GM said:
There have been several posts recently from Danley people (Tom and/or Ivan) hinting at a new super-duper-tapped-horn due to be released shortly, but I can't find which of many forums I saw these on -- from memory it was bigger than the TH-115 with both higher efficiency and much higher power handling, I seem to remember maximum SPL figures in the region of 140dB were mentioned.
Maybe Tom (or Ivan) can drop us some more hints...
Ian
sumsound said:
AFAIK the TH-50 uses the MTX Thunder 9515:
http://www.mtx.com/caraudio/products/subwoofers/thunder9500.cfm
The low Fs (32Hz) and efficiency (87dB/W) mean that this works well for a relatively low-cutoff (22Hz) low-efficiency (96dB/W) tapped horn like the TH-50 -- this gives the 9dB increase which Tom has quoted several times.
Most other car subwoofers are similar (heavy cones with low efficiency), which means they can't get up into the >100dB/W region where the TH-115 (and the new unreleased system) are targeted. The home-theater type drivers are the same, lots of Xmax but this is paid for by low efficiency.
The PASUB drivers are unusual in their combination of high efficiency (97dB/W) with high Xmax (I calculate 17mm linear, 20mm mathematical) and power handling (2000W continuous) -- the 15" looks uniquely good for a medium-sized tapped horn where an 18" driver is really too big.
Ian
P.S. Yes I'm aware of neo drivers like the Aura/Seismic (I've got one) and Acoupower (doesn't seem to work in a tapped horn)