andy_c is banned?!
Posted 24th January 2010 at 08:50 PM by gootee
Dear diyaudio,
I was shocked and very much saddened, today, when I discovered that andy_c has been banned from diyaudio.com.
I know that Variac and the moderators have a sometimes-difficult job to do, that is necessary and is appreciated, overall. And I have gathered that they felt that they had no choice. But this seems like much too great a loss for this community!
And I cannot seem to find out what actually happened, which leaves me feeling very unsatisfied with the sparse explanations that I did manage to find.
This is a _major_ loss and it needs a major explanation. I believe that that much is owed to all of us, in some sense, especially since I am not aware of anything in andy_c's posting history that hinted that he might ever even be a candidate for banning, or even binning; quite the opposite in my opinion.
And now I can't help but fearfully wonder: Who's next?! AndrewT? Janneman? Bob Cordell? (to name just a few) I shudder at the thought of it all. And I can't help but also wonder, was the fifty dollar donation that I made to diyaudio, just the day before I found out that andy_c had been banned, mis-spent? "Who are you (diyaudio), and what have you done with andy_c?"
Andy_c was not just very intelligent and scientific and almost always correct, he _shared_ his knowledge and his enthusiasm, and very-willingly _helped_ a whole lot of people, a whole lot. He contributed, mightily, to diyaudio, and helped to make it what it was.
I miss him already, and literally hate knowing that he is no longer here, not just for myself, but also for all of the members, and the future members, whom he can no longer engage and enlighten, many of whom will never even know what they have missed. It's quite tragic!
I read a mod's post that basically said yes he was smart and usually correct but rules are rules and he can not be exempt from them. In my opinion, andy_c was much more than just smart and usually correct, and is far too valuable to leave banned.
Exceptional people sometimes need to have exceptions made for them, for the benefit of all.
I would hope that the mods would actively reach out to andy_c and find a way to invite him back that will be acceptable to him, regardless of any rules. I believe that they owe it to the community they serve, i.e. all of us, to try to do whatever it takes to get him back. This was, after all, apparently not at all typical behavior for andy_c. And I believe that someone of such high value to the rest of us should be given another chance, almost "no matter what".
Very respectfully,
Tom Gootee
I was shocked and very much saddened, today, when I discovered that andy_c has been banned from diyaudio.com.
I know that Variac and the moderators have a sometimes-difficult job to do, that is necessary and is appreciated, overall. And I have gathered that they felt that they had no choice. But this seems like much too great a loss for this community!
And I cannot seem to find out what actually happened, which leaves me feeling very unsatisfied with the sparse explanations that I did manage to find.
This is a _major_ loss and it needs a major explanation. I believe that that much is owed to all of us, in some sense, especially since I am not aware of anything in andy_c's posting history that hinted that he might ever even be a candidate for banning, or even binning; quite the opposite in my opinion.
And now I can't help but fearfully wonder: Who's next?! AndrewT? Janneman? Bob Cordell? (to name just a few) I shudder at the thought of it all. And I can't help but also wonder, was the fifty dollar donation that I made to diyaudio, just the day before I found out that andy_c had been banned, mis-spent? "Who are you (diyaudio), and what have you done with andy_c?"
Andy_c was not just very intelligent and scientific and almost always correct, he _shared_ his knowledge and his enthusiasm, and very-willingly _helped_ a whole lot of people, a whole lot. He contributed, mightily, to diyaudio, and helped to make it what it was.
I miss him already, and literally hate knowing that he is no longer here, not just for myself, but also for all of the members, and the future members, whom he can no longer engage and enlighten, many of whom will never even know what they have missed. It's quite tragic!
I read a mod's post that basically said yes he was smart and usually correct but rules are rules and he can not be exempt from them. In my opinion, andy_c was much more than just smart and usually correct, and is far too valuable to leave banned.
Exceptional people sometimes need to have exceptions made for them, for the benefit of all.
I would hope that the mods would actively reach out to andy_c and find a way to invite him back that will be acceptable to him, regardless of any rules. I believe that they owe it to the community they serve, i.e. all of us, to try to do whatever it takes to get him back. This was, after all, apparently not at all typical behavior for andy_c. And I believe that someone of such high value to the rest of us should be given another chance, almost "no matter what".
Very respectfully,
Tom Gootee
Total Comments 20
Comments
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My friend tells me that the reasoning for banning is sound; but I think that is NOT the topic.
Simply put (and quite verifiable):
I think that Andy_C is "greatly more profitable" to diyaudio.com than the bit of reasoning that led to banning. Of course there are rules which are guidelines; however, I'm certain that this time the rules need bent.
I'm sure than Andy_C needs Unbanned. And, here's how:
This software has the ability to direct a given user's post to moderation for review before posting. In the case of andy_c, I think that this feature could be used for the good of diyaudio.com, so that andy_c may continue to be a member. My apologies for the greater workload upon the moderators (moderated posts are a workout); however, I honestly believe that it is worthwhile to allow such a valuable member to continue with diyaudio.com.Posted 25th January 2010 at 05:53 AM by danielwritesbac
Updated 25th January 2010 at 05:56 AM by danielwritesbac -
Bit of logic applied after the surprise wore off.
I have to guess that andy_c wanted something and/or wanted something changed.
Logically, one can guess that he went about this in a way that is not compatible with the published rules of diyaudio.com. Of course that will cause banning.
I believe that a banning (of an established member) takes the vote of several moderators in agreement.
And, I remember that all of our moderators are trustworthy.
Therefore. . .
The "real" problem may be that the cause of the banning remains a mystery.
What did Andy_C want so badly?Posted 25th January 2010 at 08:36 AM by danielwritesbac
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I also think the loss of Andy is a huge one. He, more than anyone else on this site, epitomized the DIY spirit by always helping others with his vast knowledge and experience (not lauding it over us like a lot of the so called gurus do). I also want to know why he was banned.Posted 25th January 2010 at 04:55 PM by cbdb
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Andy_C posts are invaluable to me and I am certain to many people here in this community.
On top of that, he was always polite, full of tact and totally helpfull.
Diyaudio is degraded by loosing a member like that.
As members, we have the right to know why to make our own opinion.
JPVPosted 25th January 2010 at 08:18 PM by JPV
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Tom,
Are you sure of your facts?
The Sinbin thread indicated he was in the bin for a period "TBD"
In general, I support the Moderation team.
As I have no dog in this race, I will leave it at that.
Doug
When I am Wrong ...
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/loung...ml#post2061275Posted 25th January 2010 at 08:43 PM by DougL
Updated 25th January 2010 at 11:32 PM by DougL (Found additional information.) -
Andy helped me many times both directly and indirectly and I truly appreciate that but in the end, no one gets banned unless they want to be banned.
His sage advice will be sorely missed.Posted 26th January 2010 at 01:25 AM by MJL21193
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I talked to Andy and I understand (sort of) what happened. Being a mod is hours of unpaid time, and I understand there are rules. I think we need an unmoderated place to send threads and everyone needs to grow a thick skin about what is said there.Posted 26th January 2010 at 03:49 AM by scott wurcer
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A sort of Wild West area has been considered.
It is not without peril, however.Posted 26th January 2010 at 04:12 AM by Pano
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Peril has happend.
What else can you fear as member if not the missing of one of the most valuable one.
Diplomacy has to be used yesterday and now for the benefit of the community wathever the rules.
This is a place for 'fanatiks' and as such there will be some rubbing with rules or truth or common sense. In this virtual world, nothing is irreversible even the second principle of thermodynamics.
The idea of Scott Wurcer is a very good one and the peril it can present is not worse than what just happened.
JPVPosted 26th January 2010 at 10:53 AM by JPV
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I had a conversation with Andy about what happened and I believe it's disgraceful; banning Andy confirms the DIYAudio forum late owners interests, and the subsequent moderation policies. It's obvious these are not going to change, hence it's time to move on.
This forum is heading straght to it's credibility (which should be it's most important asset) self distruction, but then it's not me to be concerned about.Posted 26th January 2010 at 04:21 PM by syn08
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Well, then. MY interest is certainly piqued. If Andy would agree, I would certainly welcome any information about this debacle that you could pass along, from him, unless, of course, that might be a bannable or binnable offense according to the moderators. The same goes for you, Scott, of course, since you two are the only ones who have stated that you have talked with Andy. You guys and Andy will have to be the judge(s) of whether or not you can, should, or want to post whatever you know, or whatever you feel is important-enough. (I can almost feel the ground giving way under our feet, as we stand on the rim of the active volcano. So don't make any sudden moves without first putting some thought into it.)
I also seem to have no way to contact Andy, having lost the emails that he sent to me long ago, and wish it were not so. However, my personal contact info is available in response to a PM.
Additionally, maybe a PM or email exchange would be easier on the moderators. It does pain me to make their jobs more difficult, especially amid such turmoil.
Tom
P.S. I just remembered: At least I have temporarily immortalized andy_c, for helping me immensely back when I was new and was rather-ineptly trying to model power transformers in LTspice, by crediting him (and powerbecker no less) in the graphic of the circuit, on one of my webpages, at Spice Component and Circuit Modeling and Simulation .
(Everone who visits that page, please, note that I am not selling anything, from any of my webpages, anymore, even though I have left them up as references and have been too lazy to state, on many of them, that orders are no longer being accepted. So please don't paypal me any money for a technical manual, for example. And for GOD'S SAKE don't mail me a check! I can point you to a free download, instead, in most cases.)Posted 27th January 2010 at 03:34 AM by gootee
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I haven't commented on Andy C to date but for the sake of wrapping this up and to quash any rumors, here are the facts:
1) Andy C was trying to get himself banned for a long time, pushing harder and harder. We didn't want to lose such a great member so we gave him plenty of rope. When he got sick of our leniency he decided to go "all out" and burn his bridges.
2) This was not a one off event. His offensive attacks on our members were many and varied, from PMs, to public posts requiring deletion by moderators, through posting then deleting posts in order to do damage but not appear publicly vitriolic.
3) It was certainly his intention to make it look like he was the victim when push came to shove. Sorry Andy, not happening.
4) His finale was to vociferously slag several members and ice the cake by attacking me in a particularly offensive fashion. I've spent the last 6 months working my backside off on diyAudio and if someone wants make baseless accusations about my integrity they can do it in person.
This isn't a perfect forum and never will be, but the moderators do their best and have a genuine passion for the overall health of this place and they put countless and usually thankless hours into serving the community. We're all learning as humans and with time, experience and the help of our friends we will grow to be the best that we can be.
If you have constructive criticism for me or the moderators, or you're just burning up inside and feel like you're going to explode, please let us know (privately if appropriate).Posted 28th January 2010 at 07:02 AM by Jason 
Updated 28th January 2010 at 09:00 AM by Jason -
Jason,Quote:Originally Posted by Jason
I haven't commented on Andy C to date but for the sake of wrapping this up and to quash any rumors, here are the facts
As much as you'd like a wrap up, this is nothing but your word against Andy's.
Based on my own experience in dealing with some of the members in your mod team, I have absolutely no reason to entirely believe your side of the story.
BTW, I in particular enjoyed over the time how the emails (suggestions, complains, etc...) sent to some of the mod team members were gracefully ignored. And except for a very few replies, the responses I got were mostly arrogant dismissals.
Banning and placing under moderation other members, in a rush, after the Andy incident, is a wrong decision as well. When it comes to moderation, there is no compensation effect, it only shows you failed to address the root cause of the problems.Posted 28th January 2010 at 04:35 PM by syn08
Updated 28th January 2010 at 04:43 PM by syn08 -
Quote:Originally Posted by syn08
Jason,
As much as you'd like a wrap up, this is nothing but your word against Andy's.
Based on my own experience in dealing with some of the members in your mod team, I have absolutely no reason to entirely believe your side of the story.
BTW, I in particular enjoyed over the time how the emails (suggestions, complains, etc...) sent to some of the mod team members were gracefully ignored. And except for a very few replies, the responses I got were mostly arrogant dismissals.
Banning and placing under moderation other members, in a rush, after the Andy incident, is a wrong decision as well. When it comes to moderation, there is no compensation effect, it only shows you failed to address the root cause of the problems.
Jason,
I spent long hours reading and corresponding with interesting, educated and well behaved people on this forum: Bob Cordell, Andy_C, Janneman, Jcx, Gootee, Scott Wurcer, Edmond Stuart, Syn88, Douglas Self, Earl Geddes, Audioman, Panson, Andrew-T .
I am very surprised to hear than Andy acted like that because I never read offending post from him but of course I can miss some and it can happen.
What I read on the contrary is disbelieve and sadness from respected people and it was my feeling too.
In a recent post I expressed in diplomatic terms this feeling hoping that both parties, as I commented, would bounce back. In fact I copied my post hereabove with some added comments in the same vein, certainly nothing to make a fuss about.
To my great surprise, the post was deleted ( as Syn88 has said) without any comment.
I asked an explanation and this post was also deleted and I recieved a PM telling me that we should not show our anger in public.
There was no anger in my mind and in my comments.
I have no connections in this community, only a pleasure to communicate with interesting people on an interesting subject.
Now, I am disappointed...
JPVPosted 28th January 2010 at 06:12 PM by JPV
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I made I think the last reports of several of his offending posts and if you guys saw them, you'd agree this was just.
Inelligence and the ability to act in a civillized manner do not always go hand in hand.
There are even LEGAL consequences to stuff like thatQuote:Originally Posted by panomaniac
A sort of Wild West area has been considered.
It is not without peril, however.
Cheers!Posted 30th January 2010 at 05:17 AM by Geek
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Tom, you should ask Andy_c why he got banned. You may remember the famous Fred D who had a dozen sockpuppets here and he liked to test the moderators when he would be banned. Andy maybe wanted to test the patience of the moderators. Maybe he got bored?Posted 9th February 2010 at 08:45 PM by peranders
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Andy has started his own forum but as he has chosen it to be closed for most people. Nothing wrong with that since he set the rules. I set my at my forum.
DIY Audio Engineering - IndexPosted 10th February 2010 at 07:55 PM by peranders
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Yes, but anyone can ask to join and then he and the other members decide on it.Posted 20th February 2010 at 11:26 PM by gootee
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Too bad.Quote:Yes, but anyone can ask to join and then he and the other members decide on it.
That way of hosting a forum is diametrically opposed to my beliefs - too clannish, too elitist. I hope they enjoy their worthy company over there.Posted 21st February 2010 at 02:37 AM by MJL21193
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Well, it's a brand new forum and I can't say that a lot of thought has gone into that policy. So it might change.Quote:Originally Posted by MJL21193
Too bad.
That way of hosting a forum is diametrically opposed to my beliefs - too clannish, too elitist. I hope they enjoy their worthy company over there.Posted 21st February 2010 at 04:39 PM by gootee
